Yearly Training Plans for Jumpers

Posted In: The Classics

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        B Hobbs on #15654

        Been doing some research….

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        K Rackley on #82074

        No weight room, or is that a given?

        It seems pretty good (although I’m a novice in training).

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        B Hobbs on #82078

        This is just on the track work

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82079

        General periodation model is decent…

        i’d drop end bounding before the comps start…

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        B Hobbs on #82081

        yeah it is very general but figured I would share.

        That is interesting that you would drop all bounding type drills. I feel that bounding is a skill that can easily be lost if not continually trained. Plus it is vital for the triple jump. I also think the skipping which i normally do over power hurdles (which is grouped in with bounding) is important for timing and rhythm of the penultimate and pulling through take off needed in all jumping events.

        When looking at this…it is for all jumpers (high, long, triple, vault) outside of technical work and weightroom.

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        B Hobbs on #82082

        This is my first time sharing my training on this board and would like to see what other coaches have as well….general guidelines to training…I love to compare and contrast what I am doing vs others

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82083

        Well, i have TONS and TONS of research on LJ training from all over the world. (I’m writing a book on it)

        So feel free to ask stuff if you like…

        I wouldn’t drop bounding. I would drop endurance bounding…during comps i would only use what i call specific bounding (see bounding thread) which is much more specific, faster, less volume and higher intensity.

        I like your program. Looks very simular to a european style (i used to train that way). So with some fine tuning i think it would be very good…

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        B Hobbs on #82088

        I create training for 3 weeks with the 4th week being a recover. Every 8th week we test where as You and Mike test every 4.

        Yeah most of what I do is European….After making my initial program style I went online to compare with others and say that it is very similar to the European style. I also am in contact with a Cuban coach who trains a Triple Jumper from the Netherlands and we agree that our programs are very similar in construction as well.

        What makes the “American” training different from say mine, the Cuban, and European?

        One of the most difficult things to wrap my head around is weekly periodization.
        ex: SUN- light, M- High, T- Medium, W- Light, TH- High, FR- High, SAT- OFF

        My question is what everyone thinks a high day vs light day is. Could a High day be a really heavy technical day or are we strictly talking intensity level?

        I follow a protical similar to yours where i think I saw that you mention before was….

        Week 1 – Technique emphasis
        Week 2 – Speed emphasis
        Week 3 – Endurance emphasis
        Week 4 – Rest/Test emphasis

        I go…

        Week 1 – Endurance
        Week 2 – Tech
        Week 3 – Speed
        Week 4/8 – recovery / test

        Mine is kind of like a mini yearly periodization rolled into 3 weeks (base training, specific training, bigger stronger faster.

        Final Question is how would you set up an intensity for the 3 weeks on I listed above, for the 3 general phases I listed in the excel spreedsheet (General, Specific, Comp).

        I know that’s a tall order. Thanks in advance

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82089

        I create training for 3 weeks with the 4th week being a recover. Every 8th week we test where as You and Mike test every 4.

        Yeah most of what I do is European….After making my initial program style I went online to compare with others and say that it is very similar to the European style. I also am in contact with a Cuban coach who trains a Triple Jumper from the Netherlands and we agree that our programs are very similar in construction as well.

        What makes the “American” training different from say mine, the Cuban, and European?

        One of the most difficult things to wrap my head around is weekly periodization.
        ex: SUN- light, M- High, T- Medium, W- Light, TH- High, FR- High, SAT- OFF

        My question is are we only taking about intensity here. Could a High day be a really heavy technical day?

        I follow a protical similar to yours where i think I saw that you mention before….

        Week 1 – Technique emphasis
        Week 2 – Speed emphasis
        Week 3 – Endurance emphasis
        Week 4 – Rest/Test emphasis

        I go…

        Week 1 – Endurance
        Week 2 – Tech
        Week 3 – Speed
        Week 4/8 – recovery / test

        Mine is kind of like a mini yearly periodization rolled into 3 weeks (base training, specific training, bigger stronger faster.

        Final Question is how would you set up an intensity for the 3 weeks on I listed above, for the 3 general phases I listed in the excel spreedsheet (General, Specific, Comp).

        Ok, firstly IF your going to do mini blocks in a 3 week cycle i certainly would not start with Endurance. Start with Tech then speed then End. For many reasons really, but mainly becuase of importance and fatigue levels corresponing with the training.

        How i prefer to do loading for a 4 week block is like this, (load = intensity x volume)

        GP)
        wk 1 – 90%
        wk 2 – 80%
        wk 3 – 70%
        wk 4 – 50%

        SP)
        wk 1 – 95%
        wk 2 – 85%
        wk 3 – 75%
        wk 4 – 50%

        Comps)
        wk 1 – 100%
        wk 2 – 85%
        wk 3 – 50%
        wk 4 – 50%

        In terms of load. I agree with the energy system training theme. You can have a high load everyday and not over train if you switch energy system training in the correct way.
        Short approach jump session are generally not going to be high intensity. But they can be high in volume and thus still have high load.

        And major differences with American systems and the rest of the world. Speed is much more of a focus than jump work. The grouping of certain training means seems different as well. American’s seem to be very science based and less practical based as well. Many of the programs done throughout the world for jumpers work really well and American coaches may say that from a science perspective their set up is wrong…

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        B Hobbs on #82099

        Yeah it makes more sense with loads than just “high, medium, low” like we find in many publications.

        However I have always looked at like this

        Week 1- Jumpers endurance (what dominates this weeks training: heavy bounding, 150m – 300m)

        Week 2- Technical (what dominates this training: runways, last 4 steps, film)

        Week 3- Speed (what dominates this training: stride length+frequency work, first 6 steps, short approach jumps, 20m – 60m)

        GP)
        Week 1- 80%
        Week 2- 85%
        Week 3- 90%
        (idea is to slowly empty the tank and refueling during week 4)

        SP)
        Week 1- 70%
        Week 2- 100%
        Week 3- 90%
        (focus on tech week and create similar movements at higher speeds in 3)

        Comp)
        Week 1- 70%
        Week 2- 95%
        Week 3- 85%
        (ending ideally w/ week 4 being a big meet)

        Like to come out of meet weeks with a lighter load to get the feet back under the athlete.

        I tell my athlete

        Week 1- “re-tune”
        Week 2- “re-fine”
        Week 3- “re-engage”
        Week 4- “re-ward”

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        RussZHC on #82124

        While I am not a jumps coach (except in a pinch) I find

        One of the most difficult things to wrap my head around is weekly periodization.
        ex: SUN- light, M- High, T- Medium, W- Light, TH- High, FR- High, SAT- OFF

        My question is what everyone thinks a high day vs light day is. Could a High day be a really heavy technical day or are we strictly talking intensity level?

        the same thing and have played around with ideas that allow for a “cumulative” sort of judgment…so even within a day if you are looking at say three parameters, one can be high but the other two then need to be “low/light” if the day total is to be medium or one can be high and the other two medium if the day total is to be “high” with the thought that if all three parameters for a day are “high” it should be a competition with recovery for some days after or the peak of a training phase.
        As a theoretical example heavy lifting w relative high total rep numbers (from the lift session) would be “high” and if one then did lots of block starts (high CNS) and relatively high number of say 120 repeats (high intensity energy system) you would be “toast” for a few days (of course it depends on the time between bouts of training).

        For me with the above thought it appears like, over time, you end up with a lot of medium days (say average) that contain “high” spikes of one or two elements.

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        RussZHC on #82126

        You almost end up with a “rocks/paper/scissors” thing where one item trumps another and to me the one that trumps all is the relative state of the CNS so greatest care must be taken as to where that work is put (density and intensity) as it may control not just that day or remainder of that day but have quite an influence on the next and maybe two days later.

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82131

        Yeah it makes more sense with loads than just “high, medium, low” like we find in many publications.

        However I have always looked at like this

        Week 1- Jumpers endurance (what dominates this weeks training: heavy bounding, 150m – 300m)

        Week 2- Technical (what dominates this training: runways, last 4 steps, film)

        Week 3- Speed (what dominates this training: stride length+frequency work, first 6 steps, short approach jumps, 20m – 60m)

        GP)
        Week 1- 80%
        Week 2- 85%
        Week 3- 90%
        (idea is to slowly empty the tank and refueling during week 4)

        SP)
        Week 1- 70%
        Week 2- 100%
        Week 3- 90%
        (focus on tech week and create similar movements at higher speeds in 3)

        Comp)
        Week 1- 70%
        Week 2- 95%
        Week 3- 85%
        (ending ideally w/ week 4 being a big meet)

        Like to come out of meet weeks with a lighter load to get the feet back under the athlete.

        I tell my athlete

        Week 1- “re-tune”
        Week 2- “re-fine”
        Week 3- “re-engage”
        Week 4- “re-ward”

        Your basically asking your athlete to go into a technical phase the week after doing a very hard and high volume bounding week. This is far from ideal and i would never do it like this. Yout set up has all the technical (high focus) type stuff happening during a time when they are fatigued both muscularly and CNS wise. I don’t why you would do that.

        Also, unloading for a competition at the end of week 4 should START towards the end of week 3. 85% load the week of competition is not ideal either…

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        Chad Williams on #82132

        Great thread.

        I like the “re-tune”, “refine”, “re-engage”, “re-ward” slogan.

        In the fall we may start off with 6 step jumps. That would be the re-tune. Then try to refine it the next week and see if we can improve upon what has already been established. In the third week, we would bump back to 8 steps, hence the re-engage. Then during the reward week, we come back to 6 steps.

        The volume of the high intensity days varies very little throughout the year. In order to stimulate the CNS, I believe there is a certain amount of reps that must be hit in order to get the affect you want to achieve. Therefore, late in the season, I often play with density, giving LONG rest periods between bouts, almost to the point of boredom on the athletes part.

        I also like to set up the next day by ending with an activity that will prime the system. Vern and Carl have both talked about this in blogs before. For example, if Monday we are doing a more neuromuscular based day, I might end with some standing triples to prime them to TJ the next day. The same goes for wednesday, we could end with some hurdle hops to prime the system for vertical lift in the LJ.

        The one thing I am currently compiling, is logging when the big performance is made and taking a look at the breakdown of the auxillary exercises. Too often, I think that things like sand walks, ankle exercises, and smaller type activities are not quantified as well as they could be. And after the big performance, I tend to give less neural work and increase the amount of low intensity activities in order to allow the CNS to recover. I often find while some things are great on paper, the real world never plays out quite so perfectly.

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        Eric Broadbent on #82134

        When you would get into the specifics about the sprint training. You mention that this would be identical for HJ, LJ, TJ, PV. I feel like the sprinting training would be different for a High Jumper compared to the rest of of the group. I know you want to train a High Jumper to be as fast as possible and have good accel but they never hit top speed or even close to it so wouldn’t the sprint aspect be slightly different and maybe you have slightly more focus on another area. Just my thoughts.

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        Chad Williams on #82138

        I had a question about the running as well . . .

        It seems that you are doing a sort of Long to Short type program with runs at 800m early on and tapering down from there. I also see very little in the 10-30m range which some may consider the most important. Is there some aspect of the training we are missing? Or do you not do any runs under 50m?

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        B Hobbs on #82143

        [quote author="TrkNFld" date="1240481993"]Yeah it makes more sense with loads than just “high, medium, low” like we find in many publications.

        However I have always looked at like this

        Week 1- Jumpers endurance (what dominates this weeks training: heavy bounding, 150m – 300m)

        Week 2- Technical (what dominates this training: runways, last 4 steps, film)

        Week 3- Speed (what dominates this training: stride length+frequency work, first 6 steps, short approach jumps, 20m – 60m)

        GP)
        Week 1- 80%
        Week 2- 85%
        Week 3- 90%
        (idea is to slowly empty the tank and refueling during week 4)

        SP)
        Week 1- 70%
        Week 2- 100%
        Week 3- 90%
        (focus on tech week and create similar movements at higher speeds in 3)

        Comp)
        Week 1- 70%
        Week 2- 95%
        Week 3- 85%
        (ending ideally w/ week 4 being a big meet)

        Like to come out of meet weeks with a lighter load to get the feet back under the athlete.

        I tell my athlete

        Week 1- “re-tune”
        Week 2- “re-fine”
        Week 3- “re-engage”
        Week 4- “re-ward”

        Your basically asking your athlete to go into a technical phase the week after doing a very hard and high volume bounding week. This is far from ideal and i would never do it like this. Yout set up has all the technical (high focus) type stuff happening during a time when they are fatigued both muscularly and CNS wise. I don’t why you would do that.

        Also, unloading for a competition at the end of week 4 should START towards the end of week 3. 85% load the week of competition is not ideal either…[/quote]

        To be far I am not going at the %’s every day for that week. That is about my average. I do unload Friday, Sat going into an off week but that weeks average is still at about an 85%.

        Maybe I missed your idea of load % because a week of 80% conditioning would be like for me:
        M- 80 T- 90 W- 50 TH- 90 F- 70 S- 75 (giving me about an average of 80%) I am not looking at 80% the whole week.

        I guess we are just different because I would never want my athletes to go from an endurance based week into a major competition.

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82144

        Right…i agree…

        But again, I would never switch emphasis’s per week. I have never actually heard of that method before.

        Linear models switch during blocks. But week to week? I would never do that.

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        B Hobbs on #82146

        I group anything from about 50 down as runway training instead of a workout. I include stride markers, initial burst say out of the back in long / triple, proper runway mechanics here. If I do sleds, hillwork and stadiums which are done for the most part at or under 50m I am amplifying knee drive / heel recover as we see on the runway as opposed to simply having them run for fitness. So I label it as runway and not running.

        If you look at any elite HJ, LJ, TJ, or PV somewhere before the become specialized they where good at 1, 2, or 3 other events. I don’t focus a HJer down. To me it seems ridiculous unless they are already established (Great). I have to laugh when I see a HS athlete who only HJs because I can almost guarantee they are as unfit as the throwers.

        Take a look at Tia Hellbaut (2008 Olympic Gold Medalist) High Jump
        She has also LJ 6.44, TJ 12.06, 200m 24.65, HH 13.91

        I will only focus an athlete down if they are performing something exceptional. With beginning and intermediate level athletes I have always made better gains coaching more the biomotor abilities as opposed to more of the event. Professional specialize because they have (for the most part mastered the biomotor abilities) making learning the technical stuff come easier and more natural.

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        B Hobbs on #82147

        Right…i agree…

        But again, I would never switch emphasis’s per week. I have never actually heard of that method before.

        Linear models switch during blocks. But week to week? I would never do that.

        I guess I am confused on what you mean by me “switching emphasis per week”…

        Do you mean that I stop during week 1 all I do is endurance, week 2 only technical work…because that is incorrect. I blend my training and include aspects of endurance, technical, and speed work into every week. However I group weeks as endurance, technical, and speed work when they are at a greater load than the other two

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        Chad Williams on #82148

        [quote author="Nik Newman" date="1240517659"]Right…i agree…

        But again, I would never switch emphasis’s per week. I have never actually heard of that method before.

        Linear models switch during blocks. But week to week? I would never do that.

        I guess I am confused on what you mean by me “switching emphasis per week”…

        You go 3 weeks straight working on 1 component only? How do you not switch emphasis going from endurance, to technical, to speed?[/quote]

        Why the emphasis on endurance inseason? Maybe your definition of endurance and mine are different so please elaborate further on this. I would think any week with an emphasis on endurance would have negative affect across the board. I have weeks where the overall load is high and we do a lot of circuits, prehab, rehab and auxillary work, but I wouldn’t label it endurance.

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        Chad Williams on #82149

        I group anything from about 50 down as runway training instead of a workout. I include stride markers, initial burst say out of the back in long / triple, proper runway mechanics here. If I do sleds, hillwork and stadiums which are done for the most part at or under 50m I am amplifying knee drive / heel recover as we see on the runway as opposed to simply having them run for fitness. So I label it as runway and not running.

        If you look at any elite HJ, LJ, TJ, or PV somewhere before the become specialized they where good at 1, 2, or 3 other events. I don’t focus a HJer down. To me it seems ridiculous unless they are already established (Great). I have to laugh when I see a HS athlete who only HJs because I can almost guarantee they are as unfit as the throwers.

        Take a look at Tia Hellbaut (2008 Olympic Gold Medalist) High Jump
        She has also LJ 6.44, TJ 12.06, 200m 24.65, HH 13.91

        I will only focus an athlete down if they are performing something exceptional. With beginning and intermediate level athletes I have always made better gains coaching more the biomotor abilities as opposed to more of the event. Professional specialize because they have (for the most part mastered the biomotor abilities) making learning the technical stuff come easier and more natural.

        What level of athletes are you working with currently?

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        B Hobbs on #82153

        Division 1 Mid-major / also coaching a 1 of my former athletes for Worlds this year (PR is 16.64). His country’s (Barbados) standards are ridiculous. You pretty much have to guarantee a medal in order for them to take you.

        From my experience it is easier to focus and athlete down that to add more work so

        Endurance to me can mean a number of things: A) working at “phrase pace” 70% (pace where you can only speak about 1 sentence clearly before needed to catch your breath) B) short recovery C) Volume / low impact D) maximize ground contacts

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        B Hobbs on #82156

        [quote author="TrkNFld" date="1240519523"][quote author="Nik Newman" date="1240517659"]Right…i agree…

        But again, I would never switch emphasis’s per week. I have never actually heard of that method before.

        Linear models switch during blocks. But week to week? I would never do that.

        I guess I am confused on what you mean by me “switching emphasis per week”…

        You go 3 weeks straight working on 1 component only? How do you not switch emphasis going from endurance, to technical, to speed?[/quote]

        Why the emphasis on endurance inseason? Maybe your definition of endurance and mine are different so please elaborate further on this. I would think any week with an emphasis on endurance would have negative affect across the board. I have weeks where the overall load is high and we do a lot of circuits, prehab, rehab and auxillary work, but I wouldn’t label it endurance.[/quote]

        I don’t emphasis endurance (running / bounding). I use it as a week to get my athletes legs back under them. Slow controlled work at about 70% effort. There will be afew days that week there we will crank it up and to drilling but my endurance week is more of a controlled running and jumping. Remembering positions and engraining them over a longer distance in preparation for better execution the coming “technical” week.

        You can look at it this way if you would like….

        Week 1: slow-medium
        Week 2: medium-higher
        Week 3: medium-high

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82198

        Here is what my prefered linear plan looks like…

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        B Hobbs on #82214

        Interesting to compare and contrast I will use your set up and show my training

        but before I start…

        TECHNIQUE
        Approach at: are you just working the specific phases there?

        RUNNING
        Sprints: effort level? distance?
        Conditioning: effort level? distance?

        WEIGHTROOM
        conditioning: is the circuits?

        BOUNDING
        fast: would you include something like B,B,B,B, finish here

        I will get working so we can compare models and look foward to having these answered.

        Keep in mind that mine will be for a college indoor season attempting an NCAA championships mini-peak

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82217

        My program has lots of open interpretation…For example, lots of chooses and variations depending various situations. (how the athlete feels, etc etc)

        But i’ll go over the basics…

        Technique – this means actual long jumping at specific stride numbers. The athlete moves back when ready. Being ready is dependant on various factors…

        Running – Sprints are basically all under 60m. Many different workouts. Including – 5×20 + 4x30m, 10,20,30,40,30,20,10 etc etc…Basically accel development leading to Max V as time permits…
        Conditioning basically means tempo – 6x200m, 150’s, etc etc…

        Weightroom – conditioning is general circuits yes. Very simular to a Bompa set up. During SP and Comps the staples are cleans, squats, jump squats, bench, eccentric squats, speed step up, core work, hip flexor work.

        Bounding – Fast means speed bounding over 20m to 30m. Timed as well sometimes. Also do bounding races within a group.

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        B Hobbs on #82232

        If I am following you right this is what I would be looking at…

        Again indoor season for an Elite Male College Athlete.

        Probably some problems because I enjoy tables. Just seems less cluttered to me.

        Color coded to show the basic phases of my training

        General, Specific, Maintenance (Winter Break), Competition

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82234

        Isn’t this FUN!!!!!!! (i’m serious)

        I like your program too…

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        B Hobbs on #82242

        This is what I love most. Comparing and contrasting…talking theory and philosophy.

        Our stuff has been downloaded over 70 times. I just wish others where contributing and not just leaching

        I mean I haven’t settled on 1 model for more than 3 years. I am constantly tweeking and love to incorporate other ideas to see if it betters my own.

        Oh and I noticed “mixed bounding” is that like H,H,S type stuff

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82245

        No, mixing endurance bounding with specific..basically done to make sure fitness is maintained throughout competitive phase…during this time the session would be 2 endurance bounding exercises and 3 specific bounding exercises or even 4-1.

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        B Hobbs on #82247

        o well i have to go back and change what i submitted

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82248

        lol ok …example of all specific bounding drill and end bounding that i use is in another threading called bounding on this site…

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        B Hobbs on #82250

        yea i saw that…. for some reason I was thinking of triple jump type drills there. Don’t ask me why

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82270

        Ok, so i think we can say our programs are kinda simular…now the fun starts.

        Daily/ weekly set up…Wanna share?

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        B Hobbs on #82273

        Daily and Weekly will be tough because the actual drills/exercises I prescribe are based of individual needs.

        Or are u just talking about run day, jump day, recover, tech day, etc…..

        If you could create a template so that I could plug in similar to what I did to your previous one it will make it easier to compare.

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        B Hobbs on #82274

        This is my Dec training for Prep Phases

        DO you want something like this?

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82278

        Yeah i mean like a sample training week from GP and SP…i realise things change for different athletes…

        But a sample is possible to do…

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        B Hobbs on #82285

        Here is a Comp Phase

        Monday
        Aceel Development
        Multi Jumps
        Wt room

        Tuesday
        Jump specific stuff
        Medball
        Hurdle mobility
        Some form of strength circuit
        Tech runs

        Wednesday
        Speed
        speed endurance
        Bounding
        Wt room

        Thursday
        Tech runs
        Short approach jumps
        Medball
        Hurdle mobility
        Some form of strength circuit

        Friday
        Accel development

        Saturday
        Speed endurance
        Ankle strengthening series
        Hurdle mobility

        -is this what you are looking for or more detail

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        B Hobbs on #82296

        SPECIFIC PREP

        Monday
        Accel development
        Short speed endurance
        Wt. room
        Hurdle Mobility

        Tuesday
        Mixed bounding
        Multi jumps
        Core circuit

        Wednesday
        Approach runs
        Wt. room (circuit or contrast)
        Ankle conditioning

        Thursday
        Full jumps
        Fast bounding
        multi jumps
        Core circuit

        Friday
        Accel development
        Long speed endurance
        Wt room
        Hurdle Mobility

        Saturday
        Accel development
        Approach runs
        General strength circuit

        GENERAL PREP

        Monday
        A.M. Wt. room (technique)
        Conditioning circuit
        Hurdle mobility

        Tuesday
        Bounding
        Accel development
        multi jumps
        Wt. room (circuit)
        Ankle strengthening

        Wednesday
        Long runs
        Cross training
        Med Ball

        Thursday
        Aceel development
        multi jumps
        Bounding
        Hill work
        Wt. room (circuit)

        Friday
        A.M. Wt room (technique)
        Conditioning circuit
        Hurdle mobility

        Saturday
        Long speed endurance
        Med Ball

        – Not everything listed I do each every day every week

        Your turn

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        sizerp on #82298

        Why no weights in SPECIFIC PREP?
        And if COMP PHASE is competition phase, where are the competitions?

        EDITED

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        B Hobbs on #82299

        Why no weights in SPECIFIC PREP?

        just caught that…fixed

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        sizerp on #82301

        OK
        Now I’m curious what is happening in the weightroom, except for the circuit sessions.

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        B Hobbs on #82302

        look back at my last linear attachment….you will see sets and reps

        but long story short usually 2-4 power lifts a 1-3 axillary lifts

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        sizerp on #82306

        I see 4-5 sets of 4-6 reps. I’m guessing that’s for squat/bench type of movements. Do you classify Olympic lifting in the power lifts category as well?
        Why no lifting in the 3 weeks of December?

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        B Hobbs on #82311

        Yes I group olympic lifts with power lifts. Basically any lift you traditionally max out in I consider in power lifts.

        December 16th through January 2 College students traditionally go home for Winter Break. I use this as a maintenance phase because most college athletes won’t follow a strictly regimented routine. Most are working for money or seeing family, or can’t afford gym membership, etc, etc, etc.

        I pretty much have to invent training for this time that I know each athlete can and will accommodate.

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        Participant
        sizerp on #82316

        Cool, I understand. Not being tied to a particular home and not working, having a place to lift at during the break was one of the main factors when I was considering where I’d stay for the past 4 years.

        About the Olympic lifts, do you do sets of 4-6, or do you lift singles 4-6 times. I know weightlifters usually work in terms of singles, and I’ve seen throwers to sets in hang cleans without letting the bar go. What is more appropriate for a jumper?

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82330

        I guess it depends on the lift. From the floor (power clean, power shatch, deadlift, etc.) I will let them drop the weight and adjust their grip. They can’t step back or rest. Just drop the weight, adjust, hit it again. If you consider them singles than yes I do singles from the floor at all time.

        My goals are to have athletes understand the firing chain and acceleration patterns. Lifting to get athletes to jump farther would be third on my list.

        Start with power cleans, power snatch, and work toward hang cleans, hang snatch, single leg hang clean. So early on the “adjustments” or singles are greater and later on they are none existent

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82332

        Ok, sorry for delay. Been busy. Here is my general prep phase. Obviously slight variations will occur. But this method listed below has worked very in the past.

        GENERAL PREP

        Saturday
        AM = Tech Devel – 8×6-8 stides jumps (over hurdle, working specific ques)
        Hurdle mobility
        PM = Accel Devel – 10,20,30 x2-3

        Sundays
        AM = Plyometics – 2 foot (30-50 contacts)
        PM = Wt. room (circuit)
        Ankle strengthening

        Monday
        AM = Conditioning – 300, 250, 200 x2 (75%)
        PM = REST

        Tuesday =
        AM = Rehab
        PM = REST

        Wednesday
        AM = Accel Devel – Short hills
        PM = Power devel – Med Ball (10 ex x 6 reps of each)

        Thursday
        AM = Endurance Bounding – 3-5 ex 5 reps (40m-80m each ex)
        PM = Weights Circuit

        Friday =
        AM = 20 min jog + lesen up
        PM = Rehab and REST

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82334

        Ok, sorry for delay. Been busy. Here is my general prep phase. Obviously slight variations will occur. But this method listed below has worked very in the past.

        GENERAL PREP

        Saturday
        AM = Tech Devel – 8×6-8 stides jumps (over hurdle, working specific ques)
        Hurdle mobility
        PM = Accel Devel – 10,20,30 x2-3

        Sundays
        AM = Plyometics – 2 foot (30-50 contacts)
        PM = Wt. room (circuit)
        Ankle strengthening

        Monday
        AM = Conditioning – 300, 250, 200 x2 (75%)
        PM = REST

        Tuesday =
        AM = Rehab
        PM = REST

        Wednesday
        AM = Accel Devel – Short hills
        PM = Power devel – Med Ball (10 ex x 6 reps of each)

        Thursday
        AM = Endurance Bounding – 3-5 ex 5 reps (40m-80m each ex)
        PM = Weights Circuit

        Friday =
        AM = 20 min jog + lesen up
        PM = Rehab and REST

        Looks very similar to what I have….I guess it should though… I can only practice max 20 hrs a week for at most 6 days

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82336

        I dont think so..

        the major difference is the way we set up our weeks…

        You have a lot of sprinting on back to back days. If i remember wed, thurs, friday of accel work. Including back to back short accel days…

        I much prefer to break up key sessions so that training doesn’t take long at all but at the same the athlete is as fresh as possible for the session. A good example would be sundays plyo day. This was always one of my fav sessions as it would only take about 45 mins and 25 of that would be warming up. I could get really powerful contacts throughout the session instead of being tired doing it after a speed session.

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82338

        I dont think so..

        the major difference is the way we set up our weeks…

        You have a lot of sprinting on back to back days. If i remember wed, thurs, friday of accel work. Including back to back short accel days…

        I much prefer to break up key sessions so that training doesn’t take long at all but at the same the athlete is as fresh as possible for the session. A good example would be sundays plyo day. This was always one of my fav sessions as it would only take about 45 mins and 25 of that would be warming up. I could get really powerful contacts throughout the session instead of being tired doing it after a speed session.

        No only running days are Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday during GP.

        Monday, Wednesday, Friday or Saturday for SP, and CP.

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82340

        What about your SP and CP

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82341

        Yeah i will post those as well….another busy day today tho…heading to train now….

        During SP don’t you do accels on friday and full approaches on saturday? This is 2 straight accel days in my opinion…

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82342

        Yeah i will post those as well….another busy day today tho…heading to train now….

        During SP don’t you do accels on friday and full approaches on saturday? This is 2 straight accel days in my opinion…

        No not to often. Remember I stated that I don’t do everything i listed every day every week.

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82379

        SPECIFIC PREP

        Saturday
        AM = Tech Devel – 6x 12-16 stides jumps
        Hurdle mobility
        PM = Accel Devel – 6x40m for example or SFS 90m

        Sundays
        AM = Plyometics – 2 foot (20 contacts) 1 foot (10 contactcs each leg
        PM = Wt. room (Max Strength)
        Ankle strengthening

        Monday
        AM = Conditioning – 150m x6 (85%)
        PM = REST

        Tuesday =
        AM = Rehab
        PM = REST

        Wednesday
        AM = Accel Devel – Full Approach Runs x8
        PM = Power devel – Med Ball (10 ex x 6 reps of each)

        Thursday
        AM = Specific bounding – 3 ex x 10reps, Endurance Bounding – 2 ex 5 reps (40m-80m each ex)
        PM = Weights (Max Strength)

        Friday =
        AM = Rest
        PM = Rehab and REST

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82391

        SPECIFIC PREP

        Saturday
        AM = Tech Devel – 6x 12-16 stides jumps
        Hurdle mobility
        PM = Accel Devel – 6x40m for example or SFS 90m

        Sundays
        AM = Plyometics – 2 foot (20 contacts) 1 foot (10 contactcs each leg
        PM = Wt. room (Max Strength)
        Ankle strengthening

        Monday
        AM = Conditioning – 150m x6 (85%)
        PM = REST

        Tuesday =
        AM = Rehab
        PM = REST

        Wednesday
        AM = Accel Devel – Full Approach Runs x8
        PM = Power devel – Med Ball (10 ex x 6 reps of each)

        Thursday
        AM = Specific bounding – 3 ex x 10reps, Endurance Bounding – 2 ex 5 reps (40m-80m each ex)
        PM = Weights (Max Strength)

        Friday =
        AM = Rest
        PM = Rehab and REST

        I take it this is just a sample week. What is the max number of days you would jump a week during specific prep?
        Jump being anything where you hit the sand..

        I seem to do the bulk of my jumps 1-3 here and back off to 1 maybe 2 per week during comp

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82400

        Yes during CP i do the same as you…

        Also, my program never has full approach jump or even take offs. My athletes will always JUMP in training from an approach length that will be within 4 strides of their competition approach at that time. A jumper alway seems to be able to contact very well with a full approach take off only if it is within 4 strides of what they are jumping from at that point…

        So the “sand” days, would be Sat and Thurs. Technically speaking however, the single leg box jump exercises on Sun also end up in the sand and of course full approaches do as well…

        I’ll write the Comp phase later…

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82421

        yeah I’m with you….I but I take it one step farther.

        I only do full approach on the track. I never have them do or feel a full approach in practice on the runway. I feel it takes all the “fire” away when they step on the runway at a meet. If we need help we take it to lane 8.

        I never go as low as 4 strides. Most of my athletes have a walk in 10 stride approach but we will go 8s and 6s at practice

        We will do 2 step and 1 step to focus on takeoff but that’s a little different.

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82424

        When i say 4 strides, i mean 4 steps…2 lefts for example.

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82426

        COMP PHASE – Lets say there’s a Saturday meet

        Saturday
        AM = Competition

        PM = REST

        Sundays
        AM = REST
        PM = Wt. room (Max Strength)

        Monday
        AM = REST
        PM = Accel/ Max V – 40,60,80 x2

        Tuesday =
        AM = Rehab
        PM = REST

        Wednesday
        AM = Accel Devel – 20,30,40 + Full Approach Runs x4-6
        PM = Power devel – Med Ball mixed with 20 plyo contacts (2 footed x10, 1 footed x10)

        Thursday
        AM = Specific bounding – 3-5 ex x 6reps OR 10-14 stride LJ work
        PM = Weights (Fast Weights, ie lighter and very fast)

        Friday =
        AM = Warm up and strides over 50m on grass
        PM = Rehab and REST

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82427

        Is there any reason why you are loading up the back end of the week for a Saturday meet?

        Why not switch Monday and Thursdays workouts (keep weight room the sam. Would you feel that would affect anything>

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82428

        I thought you may say that…

        I have found that with early meets, so this is for early comp phase…athletes can adjust to this and jump fairly well during these early meets….

        Then for the “month” of peak competitions i pretty much do what you suggested…i find it adds to the “peaking” effect…volumes of other things are obviously lowered as well…

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82429

        Here would be a sample week for a Saturday meet (off the top of my head)

        Sunday
        Speed endurance 3-5 100-125m
        Hurdle mobility

        Monday
        Accel Development (first 4-6 strides)
        Medball plyos
        Wt room (power)

        Tuesday
        2 step jumps + landing drills
        barefoot 80m tech/grass runs @ 75%
        Hurdle mobility

        Wednesday
        Speed 40m-60m
        Bounding, skipping
        Wt room (speed)

        Thursday
        10-16 runways
        Core circuit
        Hurdle mobility

        Friday
        Accels 20m-40m

        Saturday
        Meet

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82430

        See, my problem with this is,

        I don’t see how an athlete can be “fresh, pumped, hyped” whatever you wanna call it, after doing wed, thurs, fri of short sprinting. I realise the volume of friday would be very low but it’s still sprinting.

        Thursdays runways seem extremely high in volume also…

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82431

        I thought you may say that…

        I have found that with early meets, so this is for early comp phase…athletes can adjust to this and jump fairly well during these early meets….

        Then for the “month” of peak competitions i pretty much do what you suggested…i find it adds to the “peaking” effect…volumes of other things are obviously lowered as well…

        Good idea….what age group do you work with, because that may answer a lot of questions. I am sure you are familiar with the NCAA Regional Format. If not is like “Pre-Nationals” where you qualify for that meet first then at that meet you qualify for nationals.

        I am always concerned about extending their indoor comp phase “peak” into early outdoor in hopes we can get a qualifing mark early so I can tune them in for Regionals. I have had mixed success doing this (nearly 50/50). As in about half my athletes can pop a big 1 at the first or second outdoor meet. The other ones miss and I am forced to shut them down and always feel I wasted some training time.

        What can you imagine is going on during this 4 week period that is causing me such fluctuating performaces. With all training being equal I can only imagine that some athletes think they have plenty of time to get it while the others continue on their high from indoor conferences or nationals.

        Any thoughts or speculations

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82432

        See, my problem with this is,

        I don’t see how an athlete can be “fresh, pumped, hyped” whatever you wanna call it, after doing wed, thurs, fri of short sprinting. I realise the volume of friday would be very low but it’s still sprinting.

        Thursdays runways seem extremely high in volume also…

        When I am doing runways it isn’t 10-16 full approaches. We will split it up into running to are midmark for about 7-12 of them leaving the rest to simply the full runway. I should have clarified.

        But I really don’t see a problem because my volume Wed is low too. Something like….

        Wednesday
        2 x 40m
        1 x 60m

        Friday
        3x 20m
        2x 30m

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82433

        The exact same thing happened to me while doing this program while i was an NCAA athlete. I was really good from Feb until end of May. Then struggled. If manipulated correctly i am positive it can work for any type of meet schedule. The length of phases etc will just have to change…

        Different athletes can hold a “peak” longer than others. For sure. Being able to hold this is as much psychological as anything. Different athletes work differently. I used to struggle when the training load wasn’t high, mainly because i was convinced that i wasn’t doing enough training.

        This program, the way i wrote it, is based mostly on athletes who can peak for indoors (march), shut it down and peak again for outdoors (july).

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82434

        [quote author="Nik Newman" date="1240816734"]See, my problem with this is,

        I don’t see how an athlete can be “fresh, pumped, hyped” whatever you wanna call it, after doing wed, thurs, fri of short sprinting. I realise the volume of friday would be very low but it’s still sprinting.

        Thursdays runways seem extremely high in volume also…

        When I am doing runways it isn’t 10-16 full approaches. We will split it up into running to are midmark for about 7-12 of them leaving the rest to simply the full runway. I should have clarified.

        But I really don’t see a problem because my volume Wed is low too. Something like….

        Wednesday
        2 x 40m
        1 x 60m

        Friday
        3x 20m
        2x 30m[/quote]

        I see what your saying. So it’s more of a touch up type session. Just to keep in touch with accels…got it.

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82435

        [quote author="TrkNFld" date="1240817248"][quote author="Nik Newman" date="1240816734"]See, my problem with this is,

        I don’t see how an athlete can be “fresh, pumped, hyped” whatever you wanna call it, after doing wed, thurs, fri of short sprinting. I realise the volume of friday would be very low but it’s still sprinting.

        Thursdays runways seem extremely high in volume also…

        When I am doing runways it isn’t 10-16 full approaches. We will split it up into running to are midmark for about 7-12 of them leaving the rest to simply the full runway. I should have clarified.

        But I really don’t see a problem because my volume Wed is low too. Something like….

        Wednesday
        2 x 40m
        1 x 60m

        Friday
        3x 20m
        2x 30m[/quote]

        I see what your saying. So it’s more of a touch up type session. Just to keep in touch with accels…got it.[/quote]

        Right, now meet weekends the volume here would increase and I would give a recovery day on Sat

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82468

        Working with my Cuban source right now….

        I showed him both your and my linear and weekly “ideal” models and he said he does WAY more jumping than us.

        I am not sure when I am going to get his copy but I am excited to compare. They must be doing something right down there with 6 of the top 10 triple jumpers in the World.

        Ohh FYI he is a triple jump coach so what we will be seeing is how he trains in the TRIPLE.

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82471

        Wow very amazzing! can’t wait to see…

        and it doesn’t surprise me at all…if i am not mistaken they value jumps specific bounding, plyos, multi jumps and short approach jumping much more than speed work…

        I totally agree as well. I think lots of speed work is totally redundant after a while….where as power levels seems to always increase with bounding work…

        I have no problem taking out a speed day and adding another bounding day…

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82473

        Yeah and adding another bounding day would make more sense w/ a triple jumper than a strictly LJer.

        I am talking to him through an ex-athlete out of Netherlands who now trains with him, so translation has been a little difficult.

        Took forever to explain that this would be an “ideal” training plan. He didn’t understand. He kept saying that he trains the jumper to their needs. Mentioned it would be difficult because every athletes “ideal” training could be VERY different. You gotta respect that.

        Also he mentioned that we do way to much conditioning. And that he does some form of running AND jumping everyday. Also they do core circuits every single day….and didn’t “understand” hurdle mobility !!!

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82474

        Yeah i’ve read a lot of old soviet jumps training very simular…jumping everyday etc…

        The problem is, injuries are so common with that set up. It’s very hard to do pounding like that everyday. And you totally right about the triple jumpers. 100%, you DO NOT need to be fast at all to jump over 17m. 17m can be achieved easily running under 10m/s but 8 meters can not be achieved running that speed.

        and, yeah jumping everyday will cover all hip flexor needs so hurdle mobily probably isn’t required…

      • Avatar
        Participant
        aivala on #82475

        Saneyev now needs double hip replacement because of doing that kind of training.

        If you need someone to translate something to spanish ask me.

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82476

        Yeah i’ve read a lot of old soviet jumps training very simular…jumping everyday etc…

        The problem is, injuries are so common with that set up. It’s very hard to do pounding like that everyday. And you totally right about the triple jumpers. 100%, you DO NOT need to be fast at all to jump over 17m. 17m can be achieved easily running under 10m/s but 8 meters can not be achieved running that speed.

        Yeah you are absolutely right on that. Curbans where shipped over to USSR to study their training and then reported it back and into their system. Yes I can attest, injurys are a problem because this kid is tweaking something every 3 weeks or so.

        I saw it coming though when it was October and he was doing CRAZY box jumps, hurdle hops, weighted bounding, and phase work to cones. I was like “ok and where are you going to go from here.” But I guess, greater the risk the greater the reward. The Cubans are testament to that.

        There are many kids in Cuba that don’t go to school or take classes on the computer. There are tons of kids in line to become the next great triple jumper. He said triple jump is becoming the national sport. For every 17m jumper they have, there are hundreds who get don’t pan out. He also said that they have already had consistent success at 17m and now the country’s goal is to have jumpers over 18m every year.

        My athlete is doing the translating so it should be ok. I will post whatever he gives me though

        Hope my email is full tomorrow….good night all

      • Avatar
        Participant
        Daniel Andrews on #82480

        I think you’ll find that the cubans have great success with the jumps not because they jump more, but they train more specifically to the jumps and are pushing to become the Jamaica of Jumps by force. I wouldn’t read too much into the USSR training Cuban coaches, Cuba had a fine athletics program to begin with. They have had two of the finest male athletes ever in athletics. The only eastern model I see with the Cuban program is it becoming more and more like the East German model minus the PEDs possibly in pushing as many kids into a sport and training them as hard as possible, the Soviets didn’t even adapt this model as they still didn’t specialize until later in athletes development. This model will not work in freer society.

        I also doubt the Cubans jump much more than the best American jumpers do when looking objectively at training loads (volume and intensity). Maybe I am wrong, but I try to make my athletes jump year round at varying intensities and volumes, dependent on the athletes other sports. This flies in the face of some coaching practices but in adherence to other coaches who coach the best American jumpers.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #82491

        and it doesn’t surprise me at all…if i am not mistaken they value jumps specific bounding, plyos, multi jumps and short approach jumping much more than speed work…

        I totally agree as well. I think lots of speed work is totally redundant after a while….where as power levels seems to always increase with bounding work…

        I have no problem taking out a speed day and adding another bounding day…

        90+% of performance is determined and explained by approach speed…even in the slowest of jumpers. This is physics and undeniable. There’s really no way you can get around the positive effects on performance of increased speed…especially for long jumpers (where there’s only one takeoff). How many of the top long jumpers ever have been on bounding based programs (as opposed to speed based programs)?

        Here’s the top 10 LJ performers of all time:
        1 8.95 +0.3 Mike Powell
        2 8.90A +2.0 Bob Beamon
        3 8.87* -0.2 Carl Lewis
        4 8.86A +1.9 Robert Emmiyan
        5 8.74 +1.4 Larry Myricks
        6 8.74A +2.0 Erick Walder
        7 8.73 +1.2 Irving Saladino
        8 8.71 +1.9 Iván Pedroso
        9 8.66 +1.6 Louis Tsátoumas
        10 8.63 +0.5 Kareem Streete-Thompson

        I’ve highlighted the ones I know for a fact were in speed based programs. I don’t know enough about the training of the others to comment on them but between Powell and Lewis you get the bulk of the top 20 performances of all time. That’s at least 3 of the top 5 and likely 6+ of the top 10. Add in Dwight Phillips, Miguel Pate, John Moffit, Savante Stringfellow and current world leader Fabrice Lapierre as athletes using speed-focused training and it’s hard to deny the physics and results of pursuing even fractional increases in speed for a long jumper.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #82492

        and, yeah jumping everyday will cover all hip flexor needs so hurdle mobily probably isn’t required…

        I don’t think they’re the same stimulus and certainly doesn’t address any pelvic / lumbar / gluteal mobility imbalances like hurdle mobility would.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #82493

        I think you’ll find that the cubans have great success with the jumps not because they jump more, but they train more specifically to the jumps and are pushing to become the Jamaica of Jumps by force.

        I think the latter point combined with a very talented pool of athletes is really the big thing. Soto is a living legend there and the jumps in Cuba are very similar to javelin in Finland and sprinting in Jamaica….combine national obsession with good talent and BAM- lots of world leaders from relatively small populations.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82503

        [quote author="Nik Newman" date="1240906877"]
        and it doesn’t surprise me at all…if i am not mistaken they value jumps specific bounding, plyos, multi jumps and short approach jumping much more than speed work…

        I totally agree as well. I think lots of speed work is totally redundant after a while….where as power levels seems to always increase with bounding work…

        I have no problem taking out a speed day and adding another bounding day…

        90+% of performance is determined and explained by approach speed…even in the slowest of jumpers. This is physics and undeniable. There’s really no way you can get around the positive effects on performance of increased speed…especially for long jumpers (where there’s only one takeoff). How many of the top long jumpers ever have been on bounding based programs (as opposed to speed based programs)?

        Here’s the top 10 LJ performers of all time:
        1 8.95 +0.3 Mike Powell
        2 8.90A +2.0 Bob Beamon
        3 8.87* -0.2 Carl Lewis
        4 8.86A +1.9 Robert Emmiyan
        5 8.74 +1.4 Larry Myricks
        6 8.74A +2.0 Erick Walder
        7 8.73 +1.2 Irving Saladino
        8 8.71 +1.9 Iván Pedroso
        9 8.66 +1.6 Louis Tsátoumas
        10 8.63 +0.5 Kareem Streete-Thompson

        I’ve highlighted the ones I know for a fact were in speed based programs. I don’t know enough about the training of the others to comment on them but between Powell and Lewis you get the bulk of the top 20 performances of all time. That’s at least 3 of the top 5 and likely 6+ of the top 10. Add in Dwight Phillips, Miguel Pate, John Moffit, Savante Stringfellow and current world leader Fabrice Lapierre as athletes using speed-focused training and it’s hard to deny the physics and results of pursuing even fractional increases in speed for a long jumper.[/quote]

        The athletes you mentioned have always been fast. Fabrice was running over 10m/s in high school!
        Never did i say speed wasn’t important. Everyone knows it is.
        Speed determines distance even in the slowest jumpers? Huh?
        Speed based programs over bounding based programs. This is totaly subjective. I’m pretty sure ALL lj programs have speed work in them. What i am saying is basically this, is there a difference is speed development between doing 2 speed sessions a week and 3 speed sessions a week? I would say no.

        And all of the top 10 you have listed run over 10.5m/s and are considered very fast.
        But what does this mean? Your talking about the minority when you talk about THOSE distances. Let’s talk about 7.80m-8.20m (which is where most elites fall) and it will be different. There are tons of very fast athletes out there and most can not jump anywhere close to 8m.

        Side note:
        Wasn’t Myricks program also based around lots of tempo 300,400,500’s?

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82504

        [quote author="Nik Newman" date="1240907445"]
        and, yeah jumping everyday will cover all hip flexor needs so hurdle mobily probably isn’t required…

        I don’t think they’re the same stimulus and certainly doesn’t address any pelvic / lumbar / gluteal mobility imbalances like hurdle mobility would.[/quote]

        Even with all types of variations? Backwards, forwards, sidewards? and i should have mentioned the circuits they do everyday may also cover hip flexor stuff.

        just a thought…

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #82531

        [quote author="Mike Young" date="1240915877"][quote author="Nik Newman" date="1240907445"]
        and, yeah jumping everyday will cover all hip flexor needs so hurdle mobily probably isn’t required…

        I don’t think they’re the same stimulus and certainly doesn’t address any pelvic / lumbar / gluteal mobility imbalances like hurdle mobility would.[/quote]

        Even with all types of variations? Backwards, forwards, sidewards? and i should have mentioned the circuits they do everyday may also cover hip flexor stuff.

        just a thought…[/quote]I’d have to see it. For advanced athletes hurdle mobility isn’t so much for strengthening as it is for enhancing lumbo-pelvic-hip mobility. This is a complex series of joints whose mobility is critical to athletic performance and is not always easy to address indirectly.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #82538

        The athletes you mentioned have always been fast. Fabrice was running over 10m/s in high school!

        Maybe that’s why he was so good so young?

        Speed determines distance even in the slowest jumpers? Huh?

        From a purely physics perspective takeoff velocity explains 90+% of the variances of any projectile. From a more results perspective, we see that the best people are the fastest which confirms the projectile motion theory. At lower performances (7-8m) you’ll get more variability but the relationship is still no different. To get the clear perspective I don’t think it’s a good idea to just look at what currently makes the top 10 lists…you need to look at the entire continuum of performance…especially when we’re looking at an event where the performers at the top end of the event aren’t as shrowded by rampant drug use as in the throws.

        Speed based programs over bounding based programs. This is totaly subjective. I’m pretty sure ALL lj programs have speed work in them. What i am saying is basically this, is there a difference is speed development between doing 2 speed sessions a week and 3 speed sessions a week? I would say no.

        If this were the case then why would almost all elite sprint programs use 3-4 days of speed work per week. You’ve also got to remember, that sprinting IS a plyometric activity…one that’s far more specific to the event than things like alternate leg bounding, hurdle hops, etc. Also to play devil’s advocate, if one less day of sprint work won’t affect sprint performance, why would one less day of plyometric work effect bounding performance. And even if it did, if we look at the LJ event, about 90% of the duration of the event (as well as the determining factor of the even) is spent sprinting to achieve the highest manageable takeoff speed. Why would training not reflect this to a large extent?

        And all of the top 10 you have listed run over 10.5m/s and are considered very fast.
        But what does this mean? Your talking about the minority when you talk about THOSE distances. Let’s talk about 7.80m-8.20m (which is where most elites fall) and it will be different. There are tons of very fast athletes out there and most can not jump anywhere close to 8m.

        I think we might be looking at it differently. I see the long jump as currrently being one of the weakest events in track and field. All other track and field events have finally caught up to or exceeded the performance levels of 20 years ago when doping was rampant and uncontrolled. In the long jump this isn’t the case. The collegians from 20 years ago would be the best jumpers in the world right now and I think it’s because the fastest people no longer enter the event. Instead they become sprinters (most of them second rate ones at that). As a result the top people aren’t as fast, and they don’t jump as far.

        I look at it this way- previous performances have indicated that’s it’s humanly possible for several individuals to jump 8.3-9 meters every year. While the current state of the event allows 7.8m jumpers to do quite well, past performances from the event’s hey day (as recent as 10 years ago) indicates that if the current crop of jumpers were as fast as the 8.3+m jumpers from years past, then they’d be able to be 8.3+ meter jumpers rather than 7.8 meter jumpers. So we either need to get the very fastest people to consider long jumping again or we need to get the current crop of jumpers as fast as they can possibly be. As for someone ‘always being fast’ there’s some truth to that but you are testament to the fact that someone can become dramatically faster with speed-focused training. Your 30m time has dropped by 0.2 seconds and your top end speed has improved dramatically. If it wasn’t for this you wouldn’t be eye balling 8m in my opinion.

        Side note:
        Wasn’t Myricks program also based around lots of tempo 300,400,500’s?

        Many from that era did longer tempo work (including JJK) but there were healthy doses of speed work in the program as well.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82542

        You have made some very good points.

        I will talk about the final point you made…

        If you look at the LJ today and of 20 years ago i do not think you will find a major difference with speed at take off. There are many jumpers (most of the top 20) today who jump 7.80-8.20 run 10.5 m/s +. This is no different to 20 years ago. Powel and Lewis were outliers of course as they were extremely fast. But at the same time Rutherford of England runs the same speeds from 11-1m as Carl Lewis did and jumps 60cm less on average…How can this therefore be a speed issue?

        I feel many more athletes have the potential to increase power far more than speed. Therefore with the LJ once you have got to 10.3 ish m/s (achievable by most talented enough athletes), i feel more elasticity and power work will improve jump distance over more speed work.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #82544

        If you look at the LJ today and of 20 years ago i do not think you will find a major difference with speed at take off. There are many jumpers (most of the top 20) today who jump 7.80-8.20 run 10.5 m/s +. This is no different to 20 years ago.

        I think the difference is that this was less of their maximal speed then what guys are having to run at now to achieve those same absolute speeds. As a result, today’s jumpers can’t control the takeoff speed because they’re approaching takeoff with nearly 100% of their maximum. Carl was at 95% I believe and Powell was at 96% from studies by Hay. I suspect today’s jumpers are having to go at 97-99% of top end speed coming in to the board to hit those same marks and as a result they get crushed at takeoff. This would explain why you’re able to see jumpers of lesser speeds still able to equal these guys since they’re taking off slower but not getting crushed at takeoff.

        Powel and Lewis were outliers of course as they were extremely fast. But at the same time Rutherford of England runs the same speeds from 11-1m as Carl Lewis did and jumps 60cm less on average…How can this therefore be a speed issue?

        See above. Carl was obviously running well within his control to hit his takeoff speeds. I suspect the same can not equally be said for Rutherford. And even still..he’s among the fastest and jumping furthest (when he’s hitting those speeds).

        I feel many more athletes have the potential to increase power far more than speed. Therefore with the LJ once you have got to 10.3 ish m/s (achievable by most talented enough athletes), i feel more elasticity and power work will improve jump distance over more speed work.

        From what I’ve seen this isn’t the case. Perhaps if we fill in the gaps on the athletes on my top 10 list that I didn’t highlight in red and get some insight on what they were doing / emphasizing in training then we’ll have a more clear picture of whether plyometric work matters as much as you’re suggesting.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82550

        So Mike,

        You feel MORE above average jumpers (say, 24 foot+) have the potential (genetic capabilities) to run 10.5 m/s than develop huge max strength and take off power?

        You do not think world class Max V is far harder to achieve/ develop than world class (jumpers) strength and power?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #82578

        So Mike,

        You feel MORE above average jumpers (say, 24 foot+) have the potential (genetic capabilities) to run 10.5 m/s than develop huge max strength and take off power?

        First of all, I don’t think the two things are mutually exclusive. I have tons of max strength and speed work in my typical plans and both seem to go up concurrently. To address the specific question though, I agree that it’s easier to develop absolute % gains in strength and takeoff power but I don’t think it will yield the same gains as lesser absolute % gains in speed. This is partly explained by the fact that projected distance operates in a quadratic relationship with takeoff velocity.

        You do not think world class Max V is far harder to achieve/ develop than world class (jumpers) strength and power?

        This goes back to my original point about the event being in a lull. What is a world class jumpers speed? Who is a world class jumper? If you’re calling 25 feet world class then I think it’s easier to achieve the strength and takeoff power levels necessary for that. This is actually supportive of my argument because you don’t NEED to be as fast to jump 7.70m so at that point all you have to do is have average speed (with more obviously being better) and great takeoff power. But if we’re saying world class jumper is 8.30m (not just right now but in the context of the history of the event) then I think that the speed (at least through acceleration and maxV) is just simply more important. Takeoff power at that point is really just the icing on the cake because the thing that even gives you a chance to jump 8.3m is the fact that you are tremendously fast in the first place.

        Put another way…has there ever been someone jump over 8.4m who was not very fast?

        Much of this debate focuses around whether we consider what it takes to be ranked in the top 25 on the world lists in 2009 as world class or whether we look at the history of the event and see what probably should be considered world class. The latter is obviously a more stringent standard that if held to would raise the level of expectation above what most current competitors are thinking. Enough people have jumped 8.4+m with very few doping busts in the group (compared to practically any other event) to indicate that the median for world class jumpers in any given year should be at least 8.3m…yet now it’s probably below 8m. I think manageable speed is really the reason for the discrepancy.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #82579

        To bump back to one of my original questions-

        Anyone know how the athletes NOT highlighted in red were trained? Speed dominant protocol? Plyo dominant protocol? Some balanced setup?

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82602

        I’m going to jump back to what I originally intended with this thread. A look into several coaches yearly approach to horizontal jumps training.

        These are example weeks from early and late in each phase

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82604

        Who’s is this?

        Looks very simular to our set up as well…

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82605

        I used ideas from both yours and mine since we where the only two sharing

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82606

        haha got it! lol….very nice…

        Weights?

        This is for a single periodized year?

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82609

        Yes weights I follow my own program. I saw what you do like 2-3 lifts a session which i consider great for the advanced athletes but I need to get some strength on these college kids. Generally though I follow exactly the numbers I put on my yearly linear plan for all power lifts w/ 2-3 aux lifts a day

        This would be the indoor season (Sept- March)

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82768

        Said he couldn’t give me much because he didn’t bring his computer with him but we sat down and examined a few things

        using our terminology and format we have used in this post

        General Prep

        Monday
        Warm up A – walking, jogging, skipping running foward/ back/ lateral
        Dynamic stretching A- “lunges or separating the knees and a groin complex
        Hurdle Mobility- walk overs forward ONLY
        Sprint drills
        Core Circuit
        Multi jumps- standing LJ/ triple, bounding, double jumps
        Accel devel- 5 x20m, 4x 30m, 3 x 40m

        Tuesday
        Warm Up B- walking, jogging, shuffles, junges, crossing median
        Dynamic stretching B- lunges and leg swings
        Hurdle Mobility- Walk over forward and backward
        Core Ciruit
        Sprint drills
        Multi Jumps- skips, low hurdles, run run jump

        Wednesday
        Warm Up A
        Dynamic stretching A
        Sprint Drills
        Build ups 50-80m
        Core Circuit
        Speed devel (incline)
        muli jumps- TJ specific
        Multi throws

        Thursday
        Warm up B
        Dynamic stretch B
        hurdle mobility (forward, backward, lateral)
        Core Circuit
        Tech Drills
        Multi Jumps
        General stength circuit

        Friday
        Warm Up A
        Dynamic stretch A
        Hurdle mobility (skipping)
        Core Circuit
        sprint drills
        build ups- 50m
        Accel Devel (first 6 strides)
        hurdle hops

        Saturday
        B’s
        Core Circuit
        Sprint drills
        Build ups
        Speed Endurance 200m
        General Strength circuit

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82773

        Specific Prep

        Monday
        A;s
        hurdle mobility / core circuit
        speed drills
        multi jumps – TJ specific
        Accel devel- 10-30m
        Multi throws

        Tuesday
        B’s
        hurdle mobility / core circuit
        sprint drills
        build ups- 50m
        Technical session
        general strength circuit

        Wednesday
        Warm up of athletes choice
        runways
        multi jumps
        multi throws

        Thursday
        B’s
        hurdle mobility / core circuit
        sprint drills
        build ups- 50m
        Tech session
        med ball circuit
        light general strength circuit

        Friday
        A’s
        hurdle mobility / core circuit
        build ups- 50m
        stride markers
        multi jumps (easy)
        multi throws (easy)

        Saturday
        B’s
        Speed drills
        build ups- 50m
        speed endurance 100-200m
        general strength circuit

        Just a note

        Sprint drills- your traditional A’s B’s C’s AC’s stuff
        Speed drills- ex. fast leg stuff, straight leg bounds

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82776

        Competition

        Monday
        A’s
        hurdles / core
        speed drills
        build ups
        accel devel- 20-40m
        multi jump- TJ specific

        Tuesday
        B’s
        hurdles / core
        speed drills
        Tech session
        general strength
        medball circuit

        Wednesday
        Athletes choice
        runways
        multi jumps

        Thursday
        B’s
        hurdles / core
        speed drills
        build ups
        Tech session
        general strength circuit

        Friday
        A’s
        hurdles / core
        build ups
        speed devel (over speed training)
        multi jumps – hurdle hops
        med ball throws

        Saturday
        B’s
        Speed drills
        build ups
        Speed endurance 150m-200m
        general strength circuit

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82777

        Peak

        Monday
        A’s
        hurdles (skipping) / core
        build ups
        runways
        multi jumps- TJ specific
        hurldes (walking)

        Tuesday
        B’s
        hurdles / core
        speed drills
        build ups
        Tech Session
        Med Ball

        Wednesday
        Athletes choice
        runways
        speed drills
        full general strength circuit
        multi throws

        Thursday
        Rehab / Recovery / Travel / Shake Out

        Friday
        Competition/ Rehab / Recovery / Travel / Shake Out

        Saturday
        Competition

        LJ, TJ, 60m at all indoor meets – if available
        LJ, TJ, 100m at first 1/3 or outdoor – if available

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #82779

        This was me taking notes and I was just scribbling as I was writting. I didn’t get to ask him the question that I am sure is on all of our minds…or maybe just mine

        “Why do you finish all technical sessions with a general strength circuit?”

      • Avatar
        Participant
        tkaberna on #82788

        I finish all of my technical sessions with a general strength or extensive tempo because those are considered my “low” days on the CNS and those two components are compatible with technique sessions.

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82797

        Looks very simular to Boo, Shaver and Mikes training system

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #82801

        Looks very simular to Boo, Shaver and Mikes training system

        I wasn’t sure which program you were making the comment to but either way, Shaver’s program is quite a bit different than the model Boo uses. Dennis uses more mixed stimulus and because they are sprinters he does considerably more tempo running. Much of what I do is modeled after Coach Dan and Boo’s setups.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82825

        oh ok my fault…

      • Avatar
        Participant
        sas809 on #82852

        I finish all of my technical sessions with a general strength or extensive tempo because those are considered my “low” days on the CNS and those two components are compatible with technique sessions.

        I don’t understand how you consider short approach jumping low cns. I consider these very high cns-stress.The better jumper the higher the stress. If I jump 750 from 13 steps 10 times it takes alot of concentration,adrenaline and power output.And the concentration starts way before the session even starts because it is the most important session of the week.There is also some pressure and anxiety involved closer to comp.phase.This is nothing like extensive tempo or general strength in my opinion.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #82897

        oh ok my fault…

        No problem. They are similar in the regular dosing of high intensity activity but Dennis’s programs are more from the Loren Seagrave lineage and there seems to less clean cut easy / hard days and compatible and complimentary concept is not applied to as great of an extent.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #82898

        I don’t understand how you consider short approach jumping low cns. I consider these very high cns-stress.The better jumper the higher the stress. If I jump 750 from 13 steps 10 times it takes alot of concentration,adrenaline and power output.And the concentration starts way before the session even starts because it is the most important session of the week.There is also some pressure and anxiety involved closer to comp.phase.This is nothing like extensive tempo or general strength in my opinion.

        I think if you approach the short approach jumps this way this is very much the case. This is one of the reasons why I really tried to get Nick to stop measuring all his short approach jumps in practice. He does it less now and ultimately it’s not quite as big a stresor (for him) as I thought it might make it. I still wouldn’t recommend it for anyone else though.

        In addition to increasing the anxiety (and thus intensity) of the short approach jumps, measuring them also makes it difficult for many athletes to focus on the technique rather than the mark. In the setup TK posted above, the short approach jumps are the primary technical development session and the short approaches are used with the understanding that skills can be learned more efficiently at sub-maximal speeds (although additional work will likely be needed to make a full transfer to full speed). When you measure the jumps, this is bad because when making technical adjustments it’s actually expected that there should be an initial performance decrement if a change is made. If your assessment of the effectiveness of a practice is the mark in the sand (short term focus) rather than skills learned to achieve those marks (long term focus) then it can create some conflicting issues.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82903

        I often wondered the same thing SAS809. Previous to Mike, this session used to be the key one for the week for me. I did it after a rest for example and jump very hard throughout the session. I did 6-10 jumps and from 14 strides and would often have all jumps in the 7.30m-7.50m range. In my set up then, this worked fine.

        Now with Mike becuase of our set up and the value being more on other performance factors i’ve had to change up the way i do the short approach session. For example, yesterday i jumped from 11 and 13, but i only did 6 or 7 and i wasn’t running max out on the runway. I really only concetrated on one thing, which was the landing. From 13, i still jumped around 7.20m but i wasn’t trying to jump far at all. The overall stress of the session was very low in my opinion.

        So, there are a few ways you can do a short approach session, i think both have a valued place in a program. This all depends on what stage of the season you are in. In my opinion,

        * Short approach jumps should be max effort during GP,SP.

        * Short approach jumps should submax and only for technique purposes during Competition Phase.

      • Avatar
        Participant
        tkaberna on #82906

        Maybe because I am in a high school setting I would make my short approaches early in the year focused solely on technique to teach the kids and later on in the year I would move more to max effort jumping to sythesize the qualities we worked earlier in the year. I really dont like making radical changes during the comp phase, in my mind by then you should be smoothing everything out not working to correct flaws. Like I said maybe that is because I work with high school athletes.

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #82909

        Yeah i am talking about elite jumpers…most of which technique still needs work but wouldn’t have to be a main focus.

      • Avatar
        Participant
        Kebba Tolbert on #82911

        The overwhelming majority of our SRJ sessions fall on general days. I currently am working with an elite jumper and we stick to this set-up. I am often encouraging her not to measure SRJs so that we can focus on what we are working on. I don’t encourage SRJ work to be “max effort” during any part of the year. We do, however, do approach runs close to comp effort with take-offs. These almost always fall on our speed-power days/CNS days.

      • Avatar
        Participant
        B Hobbs on #83404

        Mike,

        I was wondering if you could share your “ideals” for GP SP and Comp…..or is your the same as Niks because he is in your system?

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #83406

        Lol…

        I would very much hope i am doing his ideal system!

      • Avatar
        Participant
        aivala on #84535

        Hi people

        Right now I were I live we are starting to have some cuban coaches living here in a IAAF regional development center. It’s were I train roughly three times a week and have had some insight to their training. I can confirm that it’s pretty much brutal and I personaly wouldn’t recommend it for anybody.
        There is one coach dedicated to the jumps, he currently coaches three jumpers ( pbs 7.37 / 7.30 / 6.7x). After having talked with the 7.37 guy and seen him training they pretty much have ridiculous bounding volumes and lots of lifting, even heavy stuff right before a meet.

        For the NC the 7.37 guy in the waiting area told a judge “do I have time to hit the weight room?”. He disappeared for 20min and returned for the start of the competition. I can testify seing him doing one leg jumps like crazy, he commented “I have 200 left for today, tommorow I will work with my right leg”.
        Btw. the 6.7x guy is now 20, when he was under other system and was 18 he jumped pretty much the same. He has been injury plagged since the introduction of this training regime and has completely stagnated. In the NC he jumped 6.5x. The 7.37 guy has improved with this training, he had stagnated for some years and is now starting to get better. He has a multi physique anyway, and for the account of a respectable guy he suddenly had a big bulking up (accompained of an extrange skin issue) after attending a training camp in Porto Alegre, long before the cubans showed up here. The other guy (6.7x) is tall and shlanky and the 7.30 is very small and seems to be stronger.

        They have done some big technical improvements, they usualy have a very very active penultimate and takeoff.

        So if you have typical jumper physique I would steer away from any kind of cuban training.

        Btw. they are there to coach anybody who wants, they are state paid so you just have to show up and get coached for free.

      • Avatar
        Participant
        aivala on #84766

        Ok, sorry for delay. Been busy. Here is my general prep phase. Obviously slight variations will occur. But this method listed below has worked very in the past.

        GENERAL PREP

        Saturday
        AM = Tech Devel – 8×6-8 stides jumps (over hurdle, working specific ques)
        Hurdle mobility
        PM = Accel Devel – 10,20,30 x2-3

        Sundays
        AM = Plyometics – 2 foot (30-50 contacts)
        PM = Wt. room (circuit)
        Ankle strengthening

        Monday
        AM = Conditioning – 300, 250, 200 x2 (75%)
        PM = REST

        Tuesday =
        AM = Rehab
        PM = REST

        Wednesday
        AM = Accel Devel – Short hills
        PM = Power devel – Med Ball (10 ex x 6 reps of each)

        Thursday
        AM = Endurance Bounding – 3-5 ex 5 reps (40m-80m each ex)
        PM = Weights Circuit

        Friday =
        AM = 20 min jog + lesen up
        PM = Rehab and REST

        Is your training modelled the english-way? Like Stanleys way?

        Btw. I am continuing my research on cuban jumping coaches here in Argentina. In the early 90s there was a guy who happened to have 10 jumpers, of which none survived the training after two years.

      • Avatar
        Participant
        aivala on #94532

        Hi people,

        I revive this to make an update about the cuban coaches in Argentina. The “long jump star” under his guidance ended, as predicted, in catastrophe. But one much bigger as thought, in fact with triple tibia fracture during a meet.
        I knew he was going to be wrecked but couldn’t imagine that much.

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