Workout Nutriton

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        Carson Boddicker on #14559

        Yesterday my fellow blogging compatriot, Chad Williams, made mention of the importance of post-workout nutrition. While I can’t say as the composition of his “Foamy Grossness” is optimal, an important message to take away is that you need to be taking in peri-workout nutrition. Unfortunately, particularly in endurance circles, anything beyond a beverage ending in “-ade”

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        Chad Williams on #69813

        Optimal? I am getting a patent on it tomorrow and selling it like Tony Little sells Gazelles. haha.

        They say your best ideas come late at night and for this one, I am inclined to disagree.

        While Foamy Grossness may never make it big, it certainly was cheap and easy. I am sure there are many combinations that are far superior to my spur of the moment invention. Although the better the concoction, the more the money would keep piling on. The grossness isn’t going to be concocted again, I am going to stock up on some chocolate milk. It is cheap, easy and tastes a lot better than two powders that should never again be mixed in the same glass.

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        Carson Boddicker on #69816

        Chad,
        As long as you are wearing a tight fitting shirt and far too short shorts, I have a feeling you’re product would be as successful as the Gazelle. All kidding aside, though, I was more making a jest at the flavor of powdered milk and Gatorade. I certainly did not mean to sound as though I was demeaning your inventiveness/ingenuity. Indeed, doing something is far better than nothing, and if that’s all you can manage go for it.

        That said, I don’t think that the price would go up beyond reason with other ingredients. Dextrose is very cheap in and of itself, and in the proposed 4:1 ratio of CHO to Protein, a pound of whey would last roughly 45 days (assuming 32g of CHO and 8g protein in each drink). $14 to $16 ($10/lb whey, $2-4/2 lb dextrose) over 45 days is roughly 30-40 cents per day. I’d be inclined to say that it may be roughly equal to the price of powdered milk and Gatorade powder.

        Discussing nuances, however, is muddying the point you and I were trying to make–that tackling workout nutrition is essential. Some is better than none, and some can better than others, would you agree?

        -CB

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        Chad Williams on #69817

        CB,

        You give me more credit than is due, I was half expecting someone to post “That’s idiotic” in response. It was all in good fun and I was never “demeaned” by your blog post.

        I do believe that someone who is far more serious than myself with their nutrition and training habits, should spend a little extra to ensure proper post-exercise nutrition. In a pinch, chocolate milk is great. If you don’t have a fridge close by, maybe some powder concoction that can be easily mixed with water.

        I completely agree that there are varying degrees of quality post-exercise nutrition. Our ex-phys guy, whom I work closely with, said to my athletes that even a coke is better than nothing, but if you have access to better quality nutrition, ingest that instead.

        Nutrition does play a vital role and I make sure my athletes bring something to consume post workout and post lift.

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        wisconman on #69846

        Why do you have to digest a liquid meal in any case? Couldn’t you just eat a handful of dry oatmeal? Or how about a homemade fruit and protein smoothie?

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        winnesota on #69847

        Why do you have to digest a liquid meal in any case? Couldn’t you just eat a handful of dry oatmeal? Or how about a homemade fruit and protein smoothie?

        Oatmeal wouldn’t work because it takes too long to be digested, you want sugar so it absorbed immediately post-workout. A homemade smoothie works great. I’ve used juice and protein powder, works and tastes great.

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        Carson Boddicker on #69849

        Winnesota hit it right on the head. You’re after a big surge in blood sugar and blood amino acids and the subsequent surge of insulin to drive them into cells as soon after a training session as possible. Getting this surge requires a quickly digested carbohydrate accompanied by a bolus of a high quality protein and perhaps a few extra grams of L-leucine. As liquid meals are absorbed more quickly than solid ones, they are also superior in the immediate post-exercise window, and should also be incorporated DURING training sessions.

        Juice and protein powder is an option, but I would argue it to be an inferior choice of CHO as fructose isn’t a very good sugar for replenishing muscle glycogen. It does beat a handful of dry oats, though, due to it being a liquid with a higher glycemic CHO content and amino acids to cause a stronger insulin response. It’d probably be far more palatable during and after an intense session, too. Oats with additional protein make a great first solid meal following training, though.

        -CB

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        winnesota on #69850

        Winnesota hit it right on the head. You’re after a big surge in blood sugar and blood amino acids and the subsequent surge of insulin to drive them into cells as soon after a training session as possible. Getting this surge requires a quickly digested carbohydrate accompanied by a bolus of a high quality protein and perhaps a few extra grams of L-leucine. As liquid meals are absorbed more quickly than solid ones, they are also superior in the immediate post-exercise window, and should also be incorporated DURING training sessions.

        Juice and protein powder is an option, but I would argue it to be an inferior choice of CHO as fructose isn’t a very good sugar for replenishing muscle glycogen. It does beat a handful of dry oats, though, due to it being a liquid with a higher glycemic CHO content and amino acids to cause a stronger insulin response. It’d probably be far more palatable during and after an intense session, too. Oats with additional protein make a great first solid meal following training, though.

        -CB

        I actually try to eliminate fructose from my diet whether it be HFCS, fructose, or sucrose. The juice I use doesnt have fructose in it. I actually buy a premixed drink that uses organic sugar and I add L-Glutamine.

        I’m not so sure it really matters a whole lot whether its liquid or solid. I know studies have shown that watermelon is a great thing post-workout.

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        Carson Boddicker on #69862

        Winnesota,

        If I’m not mistaken, when “sugar” is listed on an ingredient label, it is probably sucrose, and as you allude to in your post, the sucrose molecule is part glucose and part fructose. Just because it’s not labeled as containing fructose does not mean that you aren’t still getting a hefty helping.

        As far as liquid versus solid argument, I find liquid superior as gastric emptying is faster with liquid supplements. There is also data showing higher insulin responses to liquid meals, which is certainly a benefit during and after exercise as more insulin could potentially result in more anabolism (or at least a greater decrease in catabolism) when it occurs concurrently with the right nutrients in the bloodstream. Watermelon is over 90% water. However, I don’t necessarily agree that watermelon would be a “great” immediate post-training snack for a few reasons:

        1.) Though it has a high glycemic index (72), it’s glycemic load is very low (4).
        2.) To get an appreciable amount of CHO from watermelon, you’d have to eat a ton (this is why number one is true). In fact, for a 50g bolus of carbohydrates from watermelon, you’d have to eat 25 ounces of the stuff.
        3.) It is a high volume food, which means that it takes up a lot of space for containing so little energy. It’s not often that after a very intense session anybody would want to actually “eat.”
        4.) It is only supplies CHO, and it is well documented that additional amino acids result in a substantially higher insulin response and also better overall recovery of performance abilities.

        When comparing watermelon to water itself, though, I’m all for it.

        -CB

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        winnesota on #69864

        Carson

        I’m aware that sucrose is fructose+glucose which is why I stated it in my ‘sugars to avoid’. The juice I was talking about is not the same thing as my post-workout drink, which I’m sure contains fructose as it is organic cane sugar.

        I was not claiming watermelon by itself to be enough post-workout, however, if you add some whey in there it is a great post-workout snack. 2 wedges get you 44g carbohydrates.

        Elite coach Dieter Hogen, who likes using natural foods post-workout agrees.

        https://www.runnersworld.com/video/?cm_re=HP-_-Homepage Video-_-Video

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        Carson Boddicker on #69868

        Winnesota,

        Previously you stated that you did use the juice+whey+glutamine combination for your PWO. You also stated that it doesn’t have fructose in the same post as you mentioned you avoid the drink. If I misunderstood, forgive my comprehension or lack thereof.

        While I think it’s all fine and good that Dieter advocates using watermelon or other “natural foods” I disagree with the melon approach. What is unnatural about whey and dextrose? Gastric emptying is slower and creates a more minimal surge in insulin with solid meals. Further, I would argue that it would be foolish to overlook the low glycemic load of watermelon as it would not create the requisite surge in insulin to stop catabolism without a significant portion of the fruit. Beyond that, the sugar is fructose, which is not very good at restoring muscle glycogen. Also worthy of consideration, what would happen if you tried to knock down a bit of melon in between 400m reps? Does melon keep well in a backpack for a few hours down at the track?

        As you pointed out, two wedges would indeed give you 44g of carbohydrates. The wedge size would have to be 286 grams each for a grand total of 572 grams or 1.26 pounds of watermelon for 44g of CHO.
        If you are going to take a bolus of whey protein, too, it would need to be mixed with water. Add an extra pound of water into the mix and you’ve got a meal of 2.26 pounds that needs to be consumed quickly for best results. Looking at Barbara Roll’s work from Penn State, you see that she has found high volume foods (those that contain a high percentage of water) to be the key at reducing total caloric intake–not necessarily something you’re after in the PWO window when performance is the focus.

        -CB

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        winnesota on #69870

        Winnesota,

        Previously you stated that you did use the juice+whey+glutamine combination for your PWO. You also stated that it doesn’t have fructose in the same post as you mentioned you avoid the drink. If I misunderstood, forgive my comprehension or lack thereof.

        While I think it’s all fine and good that Dieter advocates using watermelon or other “natural foods” I disagree with the melon approach. What is unnatural about whey and dextrose? Gastric emptying is slower and creates a more minimal surge in insulin with solid meals. Further, I would argue that it would be foolish to overlook the low glycemic load of watermelon as it would not create the requisite surge in insulin to stop catabolism without a significant portion of the fruit. Beyond that, the sugar is fructose, which is not very good at restoring muscle glycogen. Also worthy of consideration, what would happen if you tried to knock down a bit of melon in between 400m reps? Does melon keep well in a backpack for a few hours down at the track? [b]Yes[/b]

        As you pointed out, two wedges would indeed give you 44g of carbohydrates. The wedge size would have to be 286 grams each for a grand total of 572 grams or 1.26 pounds of watermelon for 44g of CHO.
        If you are going to take a bolus of whey protein, too, it would need to be mixed with water. Add an extra pound of water into the mix and you’ve got a meal of 2.26 pounds that needs to be consumed quickly for best results. Looking at Barbara Roll’s work from Penn State, you see that she has found high volume foods (those that contain a high percentage of water) to be the key at reducing total caloric intake–not necessarily something you’re after in the PWO window when performance is the focus.

        -CB

        Nothing is wrong with whey and dextrose, in fact, I prefer liquid drinks PWO. The point is that it doesnt need to be liquid. There is a 30 min window PWO and some solid foods will work just fine, not everyone can afford to buy PWO drinks.

        As you pointed out, watermelon contains a lot of water, which would just decrease the amount of extra water one would need to drink PWO.

        I’m not sure why you think that watermelon would not suffice as an insulin spike? Sure, it may take a minute longer for the body to metabolize it into glucose(hence the lower GI), but does a minute really matter?

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        Carson Boddicker on #69873

        It doesn’t need to be liquid to get some recovery effect, no. But to get the optimal effect, liquid is superior. Further, sipping a CHO+protein drink during training has been shown to improve endurance, decrease stress response, increase anabolism whilst decreasing catabolism, improves immune function, and improves glycogen resynthesis. You can’t get adequate fuel during sessions by using watermelon or any other solid food. The time it takes to leave the stomach and be absorbed in the duodenum is much longer than that of liquid nutrition.

        There is indeed a window of opportunity of increased insulin sensitivity following exercise. Some solid foods would be better than others, and any solid food would be better than none at all, but I am saying that it is not an OPTIMAL solution to recovery. As far as affording PWO drinks, I noted in a previous post that the cost of a homemade version consisting of a good whey and dextrose would be about thirty-one cents. At my grocery store, whole watermelons are being sold for thirty-nine cents per pound. Remove the rind weight and you’re likely paying about 45 cents per pound for flesh, then add in that extra whey to get that boost in blood amino acid levels, and you’re paying more than a CHO+Protein drink, granted it’s not as good as a Surge or Cytofuse type product, but it beats watermelon.

        I fail to see how the water in watermelon is going to reduce the amount of water needed for the whey drink? Have you ever mixed whey with a little bit of water? You get a thick slop, that A: wouldn’t be very palatable during and even PWO for some and B: could potentially cause GI upset and possibly slower emptying from the stomach. That said, even if water is reduced down to a single cup, you still have to knock down nearly two pounds of nutrition quickly. In the above mentioned work at Penn State, they have been finding that once a person gets to about three pounds of food in a day, they are full (regarless of nutrition content)–satiety.

        Would a minute really matter, no? But it takes more than a minute for that sugar to reach the blood stream. As gastric emptying is slower, less CHO enters the duodenum to be absorbed at a given time. But even if it did create a great insulin spike, we are talking about a different type of sugar. Fructose is a sugar, yes, but it is not treated the same as dextrose would. Fructose has to be altered in the liver and it reaches the muscle slowly, which is by no means good for recovery. If you’re after repleting liver glycogen stores, go for it! Fructose has been demonstrated to cause GI upset (a relatively common problem), and can also interfere with (re)hydration. Again, those are two scenarios that we don’t want to have our athletes go through.

        -CB

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        winnesota on #69874

        It doesn’t need to be liquid to get some recovery effect, no. But to get the optimal effect, liquid is superior. Further, sipping a CHO+protein drink during training has been shown to improve endurance, decrease stress response, increase anabolism whilst decreasing catabolism, improves immune function, and improves glycogen resynthesis. You can’t get adequate fuel during sessions by using watermelon or any other solid food. The time it takes to leave the stomach and be absorbed in the duodenum is much longer than that of liquid nutrition.

        Agreed.

        There is indeed a window of opportunity of increased insulin sensitivity following exercise. Some solid foods would be better than others, and any solid food would be better than none at all, but I am saying that it is not an OPTIMAL solution to recovery. As far as affording PWO drinks, I noted in a previous post that the cost of a homemade version consisting of a good whey and dextrose would be about thirty-one cents. At my grocery store, whole watermelons are being sold for thirty-nine cents per pound. Remove the rind weight and you’re likely paying about 45 cents per pound for flesh, then add in that extra whey to get that boost in blood amino acid levels, and you’re paying more than a CHO+Protein drink, granted it’s not as good as a Surge or Cytofuse type product, but it beats watermelon.

        Once again, Agreed.

        I fail to see how the water in watermelon is going to reduce the amount of water needed for the whey drink? Have you ever mixed whey with a little bit of water? You get a thick slop, that A: wouldn’t be very palatable during and even PWO for some and B: could potentially cause GI upset and possibly slower emptying from the stomach. That said, even if water is reduced down to a single cup, you still have to knock down nearly two pounds of nutrition quickly. In the above mentioned work at Penn State, they have been finding that once a person gets to about three pounds of food in a day, they are full (regarless of nutrition content)–satiety.

        I was referring to the fact that you wouldnt need to consume as much water post workout with watermelon as you would w/o it. (same argument thats discounts 8 glasses a day)

        Would a minute really matter, no? But it takes more than a minute for that sugar to reach the blood stream. As gastric emptying is slower, less CHO enters the duodenum to be absorbed at a given time. But even if it did create a great insulin spike, we are talking about a different type of sugar. Fructose is a sugar, yes, but it is not treated the same as dextrose would. Fructose has to be altered in the liver and it reaches the muscle slowly, which is by no means good for recovery. If you’re after repleting liver glycogen stores, go for it! Fructose has been demonstrated to cause GI upset (a relatively common problem), and can also interfere with (re)hydration. Again, those are two scenarios that we don’t want to have our athletes go through.

        -CB

        Sure, fructose is in fruits, but many fruits have equal ratios of free glucose to free fructose, when absorption is greatest. You’re right that fructose is highly metabolized in the liver for replacing liver glycogen, which is something that needs to be done (it should be noted that all monosaccharides pass through the liver). Fructose metabolism isnt completely understood and if I’m not mistaken I dont think much at all goes to the muscle really. As I stated before, this is one of the reasons I try to avoid fructose, aside from studies relating it to high cholesterol, hypertension, metabolic syndrome, etc. With that said, my original point still remains, food does and can work, although not optimal.

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