Who is the greatest sprint coach?

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        400stud on #8572

        Who do you guys think is the overall best sprint coach? Overall, not just one thing or another.

        My vote is secret for now. 😀

        I can only think of 4 off the top of my head so any other suggestions (Mike please feel free to edit), would be greatly appreciated.

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        QUIKAZHELL on #22114

        What is this based on?
        Im assuming the runners he or she produced.. but is that really the way to do it?

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        400stud on #22115

        OVERALL. Anything that you deem necessary in deciding on your vote for best sprint coach. If it is the way he picks his butt when he's nervous, so be it. Go off your own criteria. Once more people start voting, then we can start pointing out specific traits to critique.

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        jjh999 on #22116

        Young Grasshopper! How can you leave out Tom Tellez?

        😀

      • Carl Valle
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        Carl Valle on #22117

        What about european coaches? What about But Winter? He had his athletes break the world record so many times you would only get a steak dinner from him if you ran it!

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        400stud on #22118

        I told you I forgot some and hadn't heard of others. I'll see if I can edit.

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        Todd Lane on #22119

        Bud Winter with his speed city- very good call

      • Mike Young
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        Mike Young on #22120

        My vote goes to Dan with a slight edge over Tellez. In my mind, to be considered as the best ever you not only need to consistently turn out world class athletes but you also need to have more than one great one and ideally have great success over a relatively long period of time. This eliminates flash-in-the-pan coaches who get lucky with one or two athletes and have people join their group as a result of their current success. Francis is obviously a sprint genius and produced several very good and one great sprinter but it is pure speculation to say how he'd fare in this regard (longevity) had he not been banned from coaching for so long. I'd presume that he'd be right up there with the best though and I guess Marion and Tim's decision to work with him may have been an indication of this.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        dark-knight on #22121

        T.T.

        Produced:

        Sub 10's:
        Leroy Burrell
        Carl Lewis
        Michael Marsh

        Sub 20's
        Michael Marsh
        Carl Lewis
        Joe DeLoach
        Floyd Heard

        Has anyone produced more? How about amount of athletes that can run sub 10 and sub 20 at the same meet/olympic games? Or, Most athletes that ran under 19.80

      • Mike Young
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        Mike Young on #22122

        JJ and KT would best be able to tell you who Dan's coached but I remember seeing the list and being wowed.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        jjh999 on #22123

        Here is a start off the top of my head, but I know KT will add to it:

        Dan Pfaff:

        Donovan Bailey (sub10)
        Obadele Thompson (sub10)
        Rohshann Griffin (sub20)
        Kareem Streete-Thomspon (sub10)
        Bruny Surin (sub10)
        Glenroy Gilbert
        Dudley Dorival
        Donovan Powell
        Nobu Ashahara

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        lumberjack on #22124

        The only significant sprinters I would add to the Dan Pfaff list are:
        Vince Henderson (sub10)
        Dionne Rose 12.6 – 100H
        Oba is also a sub20 guy

        – as far as number of world class athletes coached if you added in jumpers and throwers it get's just ridiculous. Dan has even coached an NCAA champ in the 10k!

        – I would expect Dan is the only guy to coach 3 guys to a 9.8 100m and probably also the only guy to have 5 sub10 guys in his stable at one time.

        If you are just looking at athletes coached, I would think John Smith has the longest resume in that regard:

        Maurice Greene sub10, sub20
        Ato Boldon sub10, sub20
        Jon Drummond sub10
        Dennis Mitchell sub10
        Mickey Grimes sub10
        Steve Lewis sub44
        Danny Everett sub 44
        Quincy Watts sub44
        Kevin Young sub 47 400H
        Larry Wade

        Inger Miller sub11sub22
        Torri Edwards sub11
        Marie Jose Perec sub22, sub49
        Angela Williams

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        dark-knight on #22125

        Other athletes coached by T.T.

        Kirk Baptiste- Olympic Silver medalist
        Frank Rutherford- Olympic Bronze Medalist
        Jolanda Jones- three-time NCAA heptathlon
        Carol Lewis -NCAA long jump champion
        Jackie Washington-Olympic sprinter
        Michelle Collins- NCAA 200-meter champion.etc

        Not to mention many other world class athletes from a variety of other sports including, Field events, NFL, MLB, etc.

        Also, between 1984 and 1996, six of the seven United States sprinters who won Olympic Gold Medals were coached by Tellez and seven of the USA's overall 13 medals were claimed by his athletes.

        BTW, T.T. is still un-matched when it comes to producing sub 20's/sub19.8's and combination sub 10's and sub 19.8's sprinters.

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        jjh999 on #22126

        [i]Originally posted by Lumberjack[/i]
        The only significant sprinters I would add to the Dan Pfaff list are:
        Vince Henderson (sub10)
        Dionne Rose 12.6 – 100H
        Oba is a also sub20 guy

        – as far as number of world class athletes coached if you added in jumpers and throwers it get's just ridiculous. Dan has even coached an NCAA champ in the 10k!

        – I would expect Dan is the only guy to coach 3 guys to a 9.8 100m and probably also the only guy to have 5 sub10 guys in his stable at one time.

        Good stuff Lumberjack, but I don't think Dan coached Oba to the sub 20, I think he was still with Kitchens from UTEP….

        Dark Knight: Points well taken, but remember, Dan didn't even start working with his post-collegiate sprint group until 1995 (I think?). So, in less than 10 years he developed 5 sub 10 guys and 3 of those under 9.9x…

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        lumberjack on #22127

        [i]Originally posted by JJ[/i]
        [quote]

        Good stuff Lumberjack, but I don't think Dan coached Oba to the sub 20, I think he was still with Kitchens from UTEP….

        Actually JJ, Oba didn't run sub 20 until 2000, when he was under Dan's tutelage. He was certainly capable of it during his UTEP days, as he ran 20.03 into a -1.4 headwind at the NCAAs, but it didn't officially happen until he hooked up with Dan.

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        400stud on #22128

        I got a question…

        Does anyone know where I can find some articles by any of these coaches on the web?

        Thanks.

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        dma1973 on #22129

        How many of the athletes stay with those coaches before they where anyone.

        Tom T coached Lewis, Marsh and Burrell before they where world beaters.

        Didn't Donovan go to Dan after he became an international.

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        lumberjack on #22130

        [i]Originally posted by DMA[/i]
        How many of the athletes stay with those coaches before they where anyone.

        Tom T coached Lewis, Marsh and Burrell before they where world beaters.

        Didn't Donovan go to Dan after he became an international.

        Mike Marsh ran 10.07 with John Smith before he came to Tellez.

        Bailey only had a best of 10.42 before he started working with Dan.

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        dma1973 on #22131

        Thanks Lumberjack I didn't who coached these people before or even there times.

        Still think my question is valid about who actually made them a good athlete.

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        dark-knight on #22132

        Good point DMA. With the exception of Mike Marsh, most of Tellez's athletes came to him out of high school. While most of the top athletes for Dan Pfaff (about 70%), and John Smith (about 30%) came to him after being somewhat developed.

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        jjh999 on #22133

        Good dialogue going.

        L'Jack: Thanks for the clarification on Oba's sub 20.

        Group: Regarding the debate of a coach "developing" someone vs. working with an athlete that is somewhat established: What are your views on the more challenging task?

        Personally, I think taking an athlete that is already at a high level and taking them even higher is much more challenging than developing an athlete from the start.

        Thoughts?

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        dark-knight on #22134

        JJ, your points are well taken. It's more difficult to take someone from 10.07 to 9.79, than it is to take someone from 10.37 to 10.07.

        Nevertheless, when you have an athlete that comes to you running a 10flat, you know you are working with an athlete with mega-ability/potential.

        On the other hand, having an athlete that runs a 10.4 and getting them down to a 9.8's is even more phenomenal. That's why I respect what Dan Pfaff did with Donavan Bailey in just a couple years more than any other thing.

        What amazes me about Tom Tellez is that he was able to develop H.S. athletes into World Class athletes that were fast/strong/smart enough to run 8 rounds in the Olympic games and still run 9.9's and 19.7's in the finals.

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        pool-shark on #22135

        JJ,

        I have done both, and I can say that producing athletes from HS to olympic gold is far more impressive. Great coaches can take in an athlete and learn their bodies faster then you think. Take for example Richard Quick who made Dara a year before Sydney. I don't know about Bailey's rapid rise, but after visiting Reese in Austin and listening to the shouting matches between several athletes, it seems that a program like that has other factors.

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        Kebba Tolbert on #22136

        I'd probably vote for Dan with Tellez being very, very close. And

        from 82-2001 Tellez's crew won almost every TAC/Oly Trails title at 100m — Pretty impressive. (i'm not counting year where the was Olympic trials *and* a TAC meet) as was the case till 92.

        TAC/Oly Trials
        1981 10.13 Carl Lewis Houston AC
        1982 10.11 Carl Lewis SMTC
        1983 10.27 Carl Lewis SMTC
        *1984 Lewis
        1985 10.11 Kirk Baptiste
        1986 9.91w Carl Lewis
        1987 10.04 Mark Witherspoon
        *1988 10.04 Emmit King Unat-AL
        1989 9.94 Leroy Burrell Houston
        1990 10.05 Carl Lewis SMTC
        1991 9.90 Leroy Burrell SMTC

        I would also add Sam Jefferson (NCAA Champs) to the list. One thing with Tellez is that I think people foreget about teh studs he worked with (field events ar UCLA) or some of the women at Houston, too (look at their all time list).

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        400stud on #22137

        I voted for John Smith simply because of the caliber of athletes he works with and sends to world championships. Look at Torri Edwards this year. It was her year and she claimed it before the season started and look…2nd in the 100m and 200m. He just know what he is doing.

        Tellez and Dan are also great coaches and I have nothing but love for those who can produce like they can.

        Charlie could probably top the list to some people if he worked with more people. Ben was a spectacular athlete and he made him elite. But, who else has he worked with? If more people would look past his incident and look at the fact that he is a great sprint mind he might be able to top this list because he probably would have many great athletes under his belt as well.

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        Kebba Tolbert on #22138

        just off my head…
        Mckoy
        Desai Williams
        Angella Isaalenko

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        400stud on #22139

        Never heard of 'em. Times?

      • Carl Valle
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        Carl Valle on #22140

        Mark won the 1992 olympics in the 110s and Angela set every national record in canada from 60 -200m. Desai was a finalist in 1988.

        Winters had the WR in every sprint event from 400 to 50 yards! Imagine Clemson having the WR in the indoor 60 and 100,200,400m and he did it all while coaching football and training WW2 pilots!

        Then another question is does the master create other masters? Can the method be repeated without ergogenics? Or is dependent? Enhanced programs are great since lifting before sprinting is great for those messing with humalog but will never work clean.

        Best fooball coach must be bill Walsh..look how many NFL coaches have used his program and won!

        My vote? Bubba!

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        400stud on #22141

        Bill Walsh is a genius, but Parcells has that thing that make coaches great. You decide what it is.

        He takes subpar teams and makes them contenders and then lets them go and look what happens…Patriots – Super Bowl champions. Jets and Giants – Playoff teams every year almost. Now Dallas will be up there again in 2-3 years, watch.

        Either way, it's about track coaches 😀

      • Carl Valle
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        Carl Valle on #22142

        What about the influence on to other sports? When your methods change the face of other sports like football and swimming then you might be doing something…..

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        400stud on #22143

        Did Walsh do that?

        If you can do that, you are nothing short of a genious.

      • Carl Valle
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        Carl Valle on #22144

        Follow the improvement of swimming from 1991, the health of the Chicago Bulls during their run, and some superbowl champions.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #22145

        Someone please break the tie :yes:.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        tecbrain on #22146

        Dan Pfaff :rolleyes:

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        coachformerlyknownas on #22147

        Give them each a 10.5 100 m guy and who gets the guy to improve the most?

        Give them each a 10.1 guys and who gets him to 9.8? and the quickest?

        Not the same…

        It becomes a semantical arguement similar to the question “Is the NBA/NHL/NFL/MLB mvp the actual Most Valuable in the league or are they the Most Outstanding?

        So many variables to consider…

        How bout if you had to bet your retirement plan on the outcome???

        My money would rest on Mr Pfaff’s abilities.

        Plus there’s the “Elephant in the Corner” that no one is bringing up. How many of these coaches have how many athletes that have been convicted or highly suspected of taking a walk on the Chemo-side of the street?

        Hell, Remi took Ms. White and Mr Chambers to the top of the stand recently didnt he?

        All depends on your point of view.

        PS Dan won my vote in a runoff against…….me.

        My all time greatest athlete was a kid that ran the HS 110H in 16.4 as a senior. Emmett Finnoche (no joke) was the kid that always got picked last for kickball-type. 4 long years of hard work and the kid got down to 16.4 which for him was equal to the avearge Joe running sub 13. Mrs K. still doesnt accept that he is the greatest I have ever coached!!!

      • Mike Young
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        Mike Young on #22148

        Go Dan Go! It looks like he’s made a big move today, picking up 3 votes and almost catching CF.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        rice773 on #22149

        Dan Pfaff used to be my neighbour!

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        no23 on #22150

        CF coached BJ to WR’s and the original WR of 9.79

        15 years later coached TM to the new 9.78

        That resolves the issue as regards the best 100m sprint coach in my mind

        I’m not sure anyone can quite compete with that.

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        Jay Turner on #22151

        [i]Originally posted by no23[/i]
        CF coached BJ to WR’s and the original WR of 9.79

        15 years later coached TM to the new 9.78

        That resolves the issue as regards the best 100m sprint coach in my mind

        I’m not sure anyone can quite compete with that.

        Maybe so, but both of those athletes are/were under suspicion of alleged drug use. You do the math.

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        no23 on #22152

        [i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
        [quote][i]Originally posted by no23[/i]
        CF coached BJ to WR’s and the original WR of 9.79

        15 years later coached TM to the new 9.78

        That resolves the issue as regards the best 100m sprint coach in my mind

        I’m not sure anyone can quite compete with that.

        Maybe so, but both of those athletes are/were under suspicion of alleged drug use. You do the math. [/quote]

        True
        And I’m not ignoring that

        It still doesn’t change the facts above.

        I guess influencing your answer essentially comes down to how you veiw the answer to the question –

        “Were they the only ones?”

        i.e. was it a level playing field?

        If we can aknowlegde they were distinctly and uniquely they only ones using unfair advantage, then my argument is flawed.

        I personally just don’t happen to think they were the only ones.

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        rice773 on #22153

        Agreed. I think it is naive to believe otherwise.

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        cod on #22154

        I voted for Charlie Francis. He has produced 2 of the fastest people in recent memory, Ben Johnson and Tim Montgomery. And I know people are going to doubt his methods because of the suspicions of drug use and banned substances, but the fact remains, those enhancement drugs don’t make you fast over-night. CF has some wonderful methods and such which have proved to work over the years.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #22155

        [i]Originally posted by no23[/i]
        [quote][i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
        [quote][i]Originally posted by no23[/i]
        CF coached BJ to WR’s and the original WR of 9.79

        15 years later coached TM to the new 9.78

        That resolves the issue as regards the best 100m sprint coach in my mind

        I’m not sure anyone can quite compete with that.

        Maybe so, but both of those athletes are/were under suspicion of alleged drug use. You do the math. [/quote]

        True
        And I’m not ignoring that

        It still doesn’t change the facts above.[/quote]
        It doesn’t???? That means we’re ignoring the the fact that the 2 most notable times in recent 100m history were performed by 2 admitted (if you believe TM’s grand jury reports) users of vitamin S. So while I’m not naive enough to assume that none of the other sprinters in the all-time top 8 list used Vitamin S, the fact that the TOP 2 wind legal performances ever are the only 2 where the athlete admittedly doped is something which shouldn’t be ignored (unless of course you assume EVERYONE is doping and just hasn’t been caught). So based off of the top 8 or even 10 (depending on how we judge Chambers and Christie) all-time performances, known steroid users are faster than presumably clean athletes 100% of the time. This is what a statistician would call a very significant trend. So while CF may very well be the best sprint coach ever, I don’t think using those 2 performances should be the means by which we come to that conclusion.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Todd Lane on #22156

        Not to sound too dramatic but this discussion is almost insulting.

        Phoenix mentioned him earlier- BUD WINTER.

        37 World Records by his athletes.
        49 NCAA Records.

        A few of them

        Tommie Smith -WR 20.0 -200 in 1966, 19.83 at altitude of Mexico City. WR- 44.5 in 400.. GOLD MEDALIST-200- 1968

        Lee Evans- 43.86 WR @ Mexico City- Gold Medalist- 1968

        John Carlos- 3rd @ 1968 Olympics, Crushed Tommie Smith in the 68 Oly Trials. Ran 20.10 @ Mexico City. Hand time fo 19.7 to win 68 trials.

        I’ll have more on Winter after this weekend. Also a book which was a huge advancement in sprinting.

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        lorien on #22157

        Remember weâ??re talking super talents, and we can only evaluate the coaches by looking at these athletes who stand out from the rest of the crowd by a margin. Looking at the cream does not guarantee the cake is good. There must be something else in addition â?¦ like what they have brought to the table and how their ideas are utilized through out the athletic community. On the other hand, the greatest coach might not need to create anything by himself if he can learn from others and utilize the knowledge right. The wheel has spun around, time for a new round. The answer is in there somewhere â?¦ but where? Still, looking at the cream might be the most reliable solution in the end.

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        wizzard on #22158

        good post Todd..Lloyd Winter is definately a coach that has been looked over..

        102 all americans while he was at San Jose State..and that famed book that i can never find anywhere..

        “SO YOU WANT TO BE A SPRINTER”..

        passing him up in this debate (truth be told I did too..) is almost as bad as the geniuses at San Jose State who proposed to tear up the track at Bud Winter Field for a parking lot.. 😮

        regards..

        Wizzard

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        Todd Lane on #22159

        I know someone I think has that book. I’ll check.

        Our library has some old classics

        Two bud winters books

        Jet sprint relays pass

        Rocket sprint start

        both from 1964.

        Did read that they wanted to tear up Bud’s track for a parking lot. Doesn’t it have a 220 yard straight still???
        Too bad they dropped the dang program.

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        Kebba Tolbert on #22160

        how can you leave out Trevor Graham, the self-proclaimed inventor of the drive phase?

      • Carl Valle
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        Carl Valle on #22161

        exactly….Marion, Tim, Kenny, S. Crawford, Justin.

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        coachformerlyknownas on #22162

        along with the proven or unproven use of Vitamin S, lets also consider the level that the athlete was at before they arrived, and thus the amount of benefit drived from association with, folks such as “Mr T”

        Sorry, but I dont have as high a regard for “the Raleigh Rasta-man” as some others may.

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        Kebba Tolbert on #22163

        i was *completely* joking, by the way!!

      • Carl Valle
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        Carl Valle on #22164

        my dry post was too….

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        Todd Lane on #22165

        [i]Originally posted by ktolbert[/i]
        how can you leave out Trevor Graham, the self-proclaimed inventor of the drive phase?

        I thought that Carol Lewis invented the drive phase in her race analysis.

        Apparently she’s moved on from the “drive phase” and on to the “quick starter”.

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        sub40 on #22166

        how can you leave out Trevor Graham, the self-proclaimed inventor of the drive phase?

        you must have been in KC for that acceptance speech.  I nearly choked when I heard that…..

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        utfootball4 on #22167

        john smith

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        Bjorn on #105310

        There are so many good coaches around. To get a top performers you are addicted to a steady influx of talent. There are many coaches who not have that. The coach that I am most impressed by is Sweden’s HÃ¥kan Andersson. He lives in the small Swedish town of Sundsvall where it lives about 90 000 inhabitants. He has a full time job as a duty officer at the fire station in the city. He has coached several top European sprinters. The two best is Torbjorn Eriksson (20.58 semifinal Olympics) and Peter Karlsson (6.58 / 10.18, medal at the European Championships 60m). He is an engineer but I do not know anyone who is as up to date on training and physiology as HÃ¥kan.

        Otherwise you have the Italian coaches. Very knowledgeable and has produced many good Italian sprinters.

        Petrowski (Borzov) came over with a lot new in the late 60’s.

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        Mccabe on #105322

        “A European Coach”…Sigh

      • Carl Valle
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        Carl Valle on #105323

        There are so many good coaches around. To get a top performers you are addicted to a steady influx of talent. There are many coaches who not have that. The coach that I am most impressed by is Sweden’s HÃ¥kan Andersson. He lives in the small Swedish town of Sundsvall where it lives about 90 000 inhabitants. He has a full time job as a duty officer at the fire station in the city. He has coached several top European sprinters. The two best is Torbjorn Eriksson (20.58 semifinal Olympics) and Peter Karlsson (6.58 / 10.18, medal at the European Championships 60m). He is an engineer but I do not know anyone who is as up to date on training and physiology as HÃ¥kan.

        Otherwise you have the Italian coaches. Very knowledgeable and has produced many good Italian sprinters.

        Petrowski (Borzov) came over with a lot new in the late 60’s.

        I try not to have someone to idol, but Hakan is one of the greatest in the world. What he has done is simply amazing. I simply can’t say enough good things about him. Great person as well.

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