Posted In: Polls
Who do you guys think is the overall best sprint coach? Overall, not just one thing or another.
My vote is secret for now. 😀
I can only think of 4 off the top of my head so any other suggestions (Mike please feel free to edit), would be greatly appreciated.
What is this based on?
Im assuming the runners he or she produced.. but is that really the way to do it?
OVERALL. Anything that you deem necessary in deciding on your vote for best sprint coach. If it is the way he picks his butt when he's nervous, so be it. Go off your own criteria. Once more people start voting, then we can start pointing out specific traits to critique.
What about european coaches? What about But Winter? He had his athletes break the world record so many times you would only get a steak dinner from him if you ran it!
My vote goes to Dan with a slight edge over Tellez. In my mind, to be considered as the best ever you not only need to consistently turn out world class athletes but you also need to have more than one great one and ideally have great success over a relatively long period of time. This eliminates flash-in-the-pan coaches who get lucky with one or two athletes and have people join their group as a result of their current success. Francis is obviously a sprint genius and produced several very good and one great sprinter but it is pure speculation to say how he'd fare in this regard (longevity) had he not been banned from coaching for so long. I'd presume that he'd be right up there with the best though and I guess Marion and Tim's decision to work with him may have been an indication of this.
ELITETRACK Founder
T.T.
Produced:
Sub 10's:
Leroy Burrell
Carl Lewis
Michael Marsh
Sub 20's
Michael Marsh
Carl Lewis
Joe DeLoach
Floyd Heard
Has anyone produced more? How about amount of athletes that can run sub 10 and sub 20 at the same meet/olympic games? Or, Most athletes that ran under 19.80
JJ and KT would best be able to tell you who Dan's coached but I remember seeing the list and being wowed.
ELITETRACK Founder
Here is a start off the top of my head, but I know KT will add to it:
Dan Pfaff:
Donovan Bailey (sub10)
Obadele Thompson (sub10)
Rohshann Griffin (sub20)
Kareem Streete-Thomspon (sub10)
Bruny Surin (sub10)
Glenroy Gilbert
Dudley Dorival
Donovan Powell
Nobu Ashahara
The only significant sprinters I would add to the Dan Pfaff list are:
Vince Henderson (sub10)
Dionne Rose 12.6 – 100H
Oba is also a sub20 guy
– as far as number of world class athletes coached if you added in jumpers and throwers it get's just ridiculous. Dan has even coached an NCAA champ in the 10k!
– I would expect Dan is the only guy to coach 3 guys to a 9.8 100m and probably also the only guy to have 5 sub10 guys in his stable at one time.
If you are just looking at athletes coached, I would think John Smith has the longest resume in that regard:
Maurice Greene sub10, sub20
Ato Boldon sub10, sub20
Jon Drummond sub10
Dennis Mitchell sub10
Mickey Grimes sub10
Steve Lewis sub44
Danny Everett sub 44
Quincy Watts sub44
Kevin Young sub 47 400H
Larry Wade
Inger Miller sub11sub22
Torri Edwards sub11
Marie Jose Perec sub22, sub49
Angela Williams
Other athletes coached by T.T.
Kirk Baptiste- Olympic Silver medalist
Frank Rutherford- Olympic Bronze Medalist
Jolanda Jones- three-time NCAA heptathlon
Carol Lewis -NCAA long jump champion
Jackie Washington-Olympic sprinter
Michelle Collins- NCAA 200-meter champion.etc
Not to mention many other world class athletes from a variety of other sports including, Field events, NFL, MLB, etc.
Also, between 1984 and 1996, six of the seven United States sprinters who won Olympic Gold Medals were coached by Tellez and seven of the USA's overall 13 medals were claimed by his athletes.
BTW, T.T. is still un-matched when it comes to producing sub 20's/sub19.8's and combination sub 10's and sub 19.8's sprinters.
[i]Originally posted by Lumberjack[/i]
The only significant sprinters I would add to the Dan Pfaff list are:
Vince Henderson (sub10)
Dionne Rose 12.6 – 100H
Oba is a also sub20 guy– as far as number of world class athletes coached if you added in jumpers and throwers it get's just ridiculous. Dan has even coached an NCAA champ in the 10k!
– I would expect Dan is the only guy to coach 3 guys to a 9.8 100m and probably also the only guy to have 5 sub10 guys in his stable at one time.
Good stuff Lumberjack, but I don't think Dan coached Oba to the sub 20, I think he was still with Kitchens from UTEP….
Dark Knight: Points well taken, but remember, Dan didn't even start working with his post-collegiate sprint group until 1995 (I think?). So, in less than 10 years he developed 5 sub 10 guys and 3 of those under 9.9x…
[i]Originally posted by JJ[/i]
[quote]Good stuff Lumberjack, but I don't think Dan coached Oba to the sub 20, I think he was still with Kitchens from UTEP….
Actually JJ, Oba didn't run sub 20 until 2000, when he was under Dan's tutelage. He was certainly capable of it during his UTEP days, as he ran 20.03 into a -1.4 headwind at the NCAAs, but it didn't officially happen until he hooked up with Dan.
[i]Originally posted by DMA[/i]
How many of the athletes stay with those coaches before they where anyone.Tom T coached Lewis, Marsh and Burrell before they where world beaters.
Didn't Donovan go to Dan after he became an international.
Mike Marsh ran 10.07 with John Smith before he came to Tellez.
Bailey only had a best of 10.42 before he started working with Dan.
Good point DMA. With the exception of Mike Marsh, most of Tellez's athletes came to him out of high school. While most of the top athletes for Dan Pfaff (about 70%), and John Smith (about 30%) came to him after being somewhat developed.
Good dialogue going.
L'Jack: Thanks for the clarification on Oba's sub 20.
Group: Regarding the debate of a coach "developing" someone vs. working with an athlete that is somewhat established: What are your views on the more challenging task?
Personally, I think taking an athlete that is already at a high level and taking them even higher is much more challenging than developing an athlete from the start.
Thoughts?
JJ, your points are well taken. It's more difficult to take someone from 10.07 to 9.79, than it is to take someone from 10.37 to 10.07.
Nevertheless, when you have an athlete that comes to you running a 10flat, you know you are working with an athlete with mega-ability/potential.
On the other hand, having an athlete that runs a 10.4 and getting them down to a 9.8's is even more phenomenal. That's why I respect what Dan Pfaff did with Donavan Bailey in just a couple years more than any other thing.
What amazes me about Tom Tellez is that he was able to develop H.S. athletes into World Class athletes that were fast/strong/smart enough to run 8 rounds in the Olympic games and still run 9.9's and 19.7's in the finals.
JJ,
I have done both, and I can say that producing athletes from HS to olympic gold is far more impressive. Great coaches can take in an athlete and learn their bodies faster then you think. Take for example Richard Quick who made Dara a year before Sydney. I don't know about Bailey's rapid rise, but after visiting Reese in Austin and listening to the shouting matches between several athletes, it seems that a program like that has other factors.
I'd probably vote for Dan with Tellez being very, very close. And
from 82-2001 Tellez's crew won almost every TAC/Oly Trails title at 100m — Pretty impressive. (i'm not counting year where the was Olympic trials *and* a TAC meet) as was the case till 92.
TAC/Oly Trials
1981 10.13 Carl Lewis Houston AC
1982 10.11 Carl Lewis SMTC
1983 10.27 Carl Lewis SMTC
*1984 Lewis
1985 10.11 Kirk Baptiste
1986 9.91w Carl Lewis
1987 10.04 Mark Witherspoon
*1988 10.04 Emmit King Unat-AL
1989 9.94 Leroy Burrell Houston
1990 10.05 Carl Lewis SMTC
1991 9.90 Leroy Burrell SMTC
I would also add Sam Jefferson (NCAA Champs) to the list. One thing with Tellez is that I think people foreget about teh studs he worked with (field events ar UCLA) or some of the women at Houston, too (look at their all time list).
I voted for John Smith simply because of the caliber of athletes he works with and sends to world championships. Look at Torri Edwards this year. It was her year and she claimed it before the season started and look…2nd in the 100m and 200m. He just know what he is doing.
Tellez and Dan are also great coaches and I have nothing but love for those who can produce like they can.
Charlie could probably top the list to some people if he worked with more people. Ben was a spectacular athlete and he made him elite. But, who else has he worked with? If more people would look past his incident and look at the fact that he is a great sprint mind he might be able to top this list because he probably would have many great athletes under his belt as well.
just off my head…
Mckoy
Desai Williams
Angella Isaalenko
Mark won the 1992 olympics in the 110s and Angela set every national record in canada from 60 -200m. Desai was a finalist in 1988.
Winters had the WR in every sprint event from 400 to 50 yards! Imagine Clemson having the WR in the indoor 60 and 100,200,400m and he did it all while coaching football and training WW2 pilots!
Then another question is does the master create other masters? Can the method be repeated without ergogenics? Or is dependent? Enhanced programs are great since lifting before sprinting is great for those messing with humalog but will never work clean.
Best fooball coach must be bill Walsh..look how many NFL coaches have used his program and won!
My vote? Bubba!
Bill Walsh is a genius, but Parcells has that thing that make coaches great. You decide what it is.
He takes subpar teams and makes them contenders and then lets them go and look what happens…Patriots – Super Bowl champions. Jets and Giants – Playoff teams every year almost. Now Dallas will be up there again in 2-3 years, watch.
Either way, it's about track coaches 😀
What about the influence on to other sports? When your methods change the face of other sports like football and swimming then you might be doing something…..
Follow the improvement of swimming from 1991, the health of the Chicago Bulls during their run, and some superbowl champions.
Someone please break the tie :yes:.
ELITETRACK Founder
Give them each a 10.5 100 m guy and who gets the guy to improve the most?
Give them each a 10.1 guys and who gets him to 9.8? and the quickest?
Not the same…
It becomes a semantical arguement similar to the question “Is the NBA/NHL/NFL/MLB mvp the actual Most Valuable in the league or are they the Most Outstanding?
So many variables to consider…
How bout if you had to bet your retirement plan on the outcome???
My money would rest on Mr Pfaff’s abilities.
Plus there’s the “Elephant in the Corner” that no one is bringing up. How many of these coaches have how many athletes that have been convicted or highly suspected of taking a walk on the Chemo-side of the street?
Hell, Remi took Ms. White and Mr Chambers to the top of the stand recently didnt he?
All depends on your point of view.
PS Dan won my vote in a runoff against…….me.
My all time greatest athlete was a kid that ran the HS 110H in 16.4 as a senior. Emmett Finnoche (no joke) was the kid that always got picked last for kickball-type. 4 long years of hard work and the kid got down to 16.4 which for him was equal to the avearge Joe running sub 13. Mrs K. still doesnt accept that he is the greatest I have ever coached!!!
Go Dan Go! It looks like he’s made a big move today, picking up 3 votes and almost catching CF.
ELITETRACK Founder
[i]Originally posted by no23[/i]
CF coached BJ to WR’s and the original WR of 9.7915 years later coached TM to the new 9.78
That resolves the issue as regards the best 100m sprint coach in my mind
I’m not sure anyone can quite compete with that.
Maybe so, but both of those athletes are/were under suspicion of alleged drug use. You do the math.
[i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
[quote][i]Originally posted by no23[/i]
CF coached BJ to WR’s and the original WR of 9.7915 years later coached TM to the new 9.78
That resolves the issue as regards the best 100m sprint coach in my mind
I’m not sure anyone can quite compete with that.
Maybe so, but both of those athletes are/were under suspicion of alleged drug use. You do the math. [/quote]
True
And I’m not ignoring that
It still doesn’t change the facts above.
I guess influencing your answer essentially comes down to how you veiw the answer to the question –
“Were they the only ones?”
i.e. was it a level playing field?
If we can aknowlegde they were distinctly and uniquely they only ones using unfair advantage, then my argument is flawed.
I personally just don’t happen to think they were the only ones.
I voted for Charlie Francis. He has produced 2 of the fastest people in recent memory, Ben Johnson and Tim Montgomery. And I know people are going to doubt his methods because of the suspicions of drug use and banned substances, but the fact remains, those enhancement drugs don’t make you fast over-night. CF has some wonderful methods and such which have proved to work over the years.
[i]Originally posted by no23[/i]
[quote][i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
[quote][i]Originally posted by no23[/i]
CF coached BJ to WR’s and the original WR of 9.7915 years later coached TM to the new 9.78
That resolves the issue as regards the best 100m sprint coach in my mind
I’m not sure anyone can quite compete with that.
Maybe so, but both of those athletes are/were under suspicion of alleged drug use. You do the math. [/quote]
True
And I’m not ignoring that
It still doesn’t change the facts above.[/quote]
It doesn’t???? That means we’re ignoring the the fact that the 2 most notable times in recent 100m history were performed by 2 admitted (if you believe TM’s grand jury reports) users of vitamin S. So while I’m not naive enough to assume that none of the other sprinters in the all-time top 8 list used Vitamin S, the fact that the TOP 2 wind legal performances ever are the only 2 where the athlete admittedly doped is something which shouldn’t be ignored (unless of course you assume EVERYONE is doping and just hasn’t been caught). So based off of the top 8 or even 10 (depending on how we judge Chambers and Christie) all-time performances, known steroid users are faster than presumably clean athletes 100% of the time. This is what a statistician would call a very significant trend. So while CF may very well be the best sprint coach ever, I don’t think using those 2 performances should be the means by which we come to that conclusion.
ELITETRACK Founder
Not to sound too dramatic but this discussion is almost insulting.
Phoenix mentioned him earlier- BUD WINTER.
37 World Records by his athletes.
49 NCAA Records.
A few of them
Tommie Smith -WR 20.0 -200 in 1966, 19.83 at altitude of Mexico City. WR- 44.5 in 400.. GOLD MEDALIST-200- 1968
Lee Evans- 43.86 WR @ Mexico City- Gold Medalist- 1968
John Carlos- 3rd @ 1968 Olympics, Crushed Tommie Smith in the 68 Oly Trials. Ran 20.10 @ Mexico City. Hand time fo 19.7 to win 68 trials.
I’ll have more on Winter after this weekend. Also a book which was a huge advancement in sprinting.
Remember weâ??re talking super talents, and we can only evaluate the coaches by looking at these athletes who stand out from the rest of the crowd by a margin. Looking at the cream does not guarantee the cake is good. There must be something else in addition â?¦ like what they have brought to the table and how their ideas are utilized through out the athletic community. On the other hand, the greatest coach might not need to create anything by himself if he can learn from others and utilize the knowledge right. The wheel has spun around, time for a new round. The answer is in there somewhere â?¦ but where? Still, looking at the cream might be the most reliable solution in the end.
good post Todd..Lloyd Winter is definately a coach that has been looked over..
102 all americans while he was at San Jose State..and that famed book that i can never find anywhere..
“SO YOU WANT TO BE A SPRINTER”..
passing him up in this debate (truth be told I did too..) is almost as bad as the geniuses at San Jose State who proposed to tear up the track at Bud Winter Field for a parking lot.. 😮
regards..
Wizzard
I know someone I think has that book. I’ll check.
Our library has some old classics
Two bud winters books
Jet sprint relays pass
Rocket sprint start
both from 1964.
Did read that they wanted to tear up Bud’s track for a parking lot. Doesn’t it have a 220 yard straight still???
Too bad they dropped the dang program.
how can you leave out Trevor Graham, the self-proclaimed inventor of the drive phase?
exactly….Marion, Tim, Kenny, S. Crawford, Justin.
along with the proven or unproven use of Vitamin S, lets also consider the level that the athlete was at before they arrived, and thus the amount of benefit drived from association with, folks such as “Mr T”
Sorry, but I dont have as high a regard for “the Raleigh Rasta-man” as some others may.
i was *completely* joking, by the way!!
my dry post was too….
[i]Originally posted by ktolbert[/i]
how can you leave out Trevor Graham, the self-proclaimed inventor of the drive phase?
I thought that Carol Lewis invented the drive phase in her race analysis.
Apparently she’s moved on from the “drive phase” and on to the “quick starter”.
john smith
There are so many good coaches around. To get a top performers you are addicted to a steady influx of talent. There are many coaches who not have that. The coach that I am most impressed by is Sweden’s HÃ¥kan Andersson. He lives in the small Swedish town of Sundsvall where it lives about 90 000 inhabitants. He has a full time job as a duty officer at the fire station in the city. He has coached several top European sprinters. The two best is Torbjorn Eriksson (20.58 semifinal Olympics) and Peter Karlsson (6.58 / 10.18, medal at the European Championships 60m). He is an engineer but I do not know anyone who is as up to date on training and physiology as HÃ¥kan.
Otherwise you have the Italian coaches. Very knowledgeable and has produced many good Italian sprinters.
Petrowski (Borzov) came over with a lot new in the late 60’s.
There are so many good coaches around. To get a top performers you are addicted to a steady influx of talent. There are many coaches who not have that. The coach that I am most impressed by is Sweden’s HÃ¥kan Andersson. He lives in the small Swedish town of Sundsvall where it lives about 90 000 inhabitants. He has a full time job as a duty officer at the fire station in the city. He has coached several top European sprinters. The two best is Torbjorn Eriksson (20.58 semifinal Olympics) and Peter Karlsson (6.58 / 10.18, medal at the European Championships 60m). He is an engineer but I do not know anyone who is as up to date on training and physiology as HÃ¥kan.
Otherwise you have the Italian coaches. Very knowledgeable and has produced many good Italian sprinters.
Petrowski (Borzov) came over with a lot new in the late 60’s.
I try not to have someone to idol, but Hakan is one of the greatest in the world. What he has done is simply amazing. I simply can’t say enough good things about him. Great person as well.
