Speed in gpp

Posted In: The Classics

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    400stud on #21051

    Sorry, did I offend you? Didn't mean to :saint: .

    I have always thought there was a name for each phase of a sprint, but I guess not. I still like your explanation in mechanical terms. I wish I knew stuff like that to be able to explain it like that.

    Take a nap. You sound like you need it.

    Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #21052

    Lift phase? I better write that down for a video idea later….

    I am not a fan of Max V work longer then 30m. What some people aregue is that the intensity of a young athlete will be less so they can handle a longer distance, but I would argue that younger athletes need more shorter distance like running a 20m or even a series of 15-18m.

    As for sensations you must remember that sometimes runs that feel slow are fast…remember that the "drive phase" is the slowest part of the race…so you should feel faster up and tall. I think the drive phase is just teaching people to be patient and not to get into the pawing (lord help us) phase too soon…

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    400stud on #21053

    Do you recommend the 15-20m sprints for 200/400 runners…at my age/level?

    I thought that up to 40m would be good and even 60m, but what do I know?

    Would you say that ins and outs and flying sprints are the best way to go for developing speed for developing athletes?

    Sorry, a lot of questions, I know. My bad.

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    9000 on #21054

    with my own experience this past summer i have definitly felt and seen the benifits of flying 30's. they are definitly long enough to get maxV work out of.

    Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #21055

    With low levels of performance….the key is to improve your time..not max speed. So learn to love GPP work. Drop seconds from fitness.:duh:

    Mike Young
    Keymaster
    Mike Young on #21056

    [i]Originally posted by Phoenix[/i]
    With low levels of performance….the key is to improve your time..not max speed. So learn to love GPP work. Drop seconds from fitness.:duh:

    Very well put (and I wholeheartedly agree), however (as I'm sure you know very well) max speed does seem to be the primary determinant of success for all events up to 400m (at least at the elite level).

    ELITETRACK Founder

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    400stud on #21057

    So should I worry about fitness right now and during SPP and then try worrying about MaxV/Speed during Pre-Comp. and Competition phases?

    Based on what both you guys said, that is my hypothesis as to what should happen.

    Mike Young
    Keymaster
    Mike Young on #21058

    [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
    Do you recommend the 15-20m sprints for 200/400 runners…at my age/level?

    I would if MaxV was a big priority. I would imagine based on your age and PRs that you could probably only hold MaxV (from a training and not scientific standpoint) for 10-15m. So after a run-in or flying start, you could expect to be able to maintain MaxV for somewhere near 10-15m.

    [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
    I thought that up to 40m would be good and even 60m, but what do I know?

    Are you referring to a flying 40 or 60m? If so, this would be an inefficient method of developing MaxV because you'd be running quite a ways while decelerating. While this would be a good speed endurance workout, it wouldn't be your best bet for MaxV development. 40 and 60m sprints on the other hand would be useful because they develop acceleration to MaxV (which I'd suspect would occur around 30-40m for you) and then you'd have 5-20m at that speed or trying to maintain.

    [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
    Would you say that ins and outs and flying sprints are the best way to go for developing speed for developing athletes?

    In my opinion, yes.

    ELITETRACK Founder

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    400stud on #21059

    So I could stick with my 40m and 60m sprints while also incorporating flying sprints right (like 10m flying and 20m sprint or something)? Or should I stick with ins and outs/flying sprints on my speed days?

    Should MaxV be a big priority for me to get my 200pr down since I am a 200/400 specialist? I would think so, but at the same time I would think speed endurance would probably be more of a focus.

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    2belite on #21060

    Looking at your 2004 goals would make be believe you have more to gain via fitness than speed. I think phoeneix said it best " drop seconds from fitness".
    Dropping 0.2 off of your 60 is much harder than 1.0 off your 400. Go for the big chunks at the end, then move towards the start.

    Mike Young
    Keymaster
    Mike Young on #21061

    2belite-
    Good points, and I agree that his biggest gains will probably come from general fitness. However, taking off 0.2 seconds off of his 60m time will have a much greater effect than on just his first 60m. If he increases his top-end speed it will carry over so that he should be able to run longer at sub-maximal speeds.

    ELITETRACK Founder

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    2belite on #21062

    [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
    2belite-
    Good points, and I agree that his biggest gains will probably come from general fitness. However, taking off 0.2 seconds off of his 60m time will have a much greater effect than on just his first 60m. If he increases his top-end speed it will carry over so that he should be able to run longer at sub-maximal speeds.

    Mike, I sort of, kind of agree with you on that:P For a more developed athlete a 2 tenth improvement in the 60 would go a long way, and maybe should be worked on specifically. However, in 400stud's case the focus should still be on fitness and general conditioning.
    If his goal is to run 23 in the 200m, I am guessing his 100 is in the mid 11s at best. Someone running in the mid 11s is most likely unable to hold form for most of the race and is probably decelerating from as early as 40m. So there is lots of room for general fitness and conditioning to give him a pr in the 100, and that would pay off well in his events of choice the 200 and 400.
    I don't see where speed should be a focus for him at this point.

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    400stud on #21063

    To tell you the truth, my 100 PR is 11.87. I got it down there from a previous PB of 12.5 from LAST year. I don't run the 100m so I don't concentrate on it.

    What I am confused on is what you guys are talking about when you refer to me gaining from "fitness"? What exactly do you define as "fitness"?

    I always thought that at a young age speed should be the main focus. My reasoning is that it is easier to train speed when the athlete is younger. You want to have speed qualities in place before you REALLY start focusing on specific endurance. Kind of like in a training year. You should get the speed base in before you work on speed endurance. You see where I'm going?

    I saw pretty big improvements in time in only 5 weeks by focusing primarily on speed and speed endurance. I got my "fitness", you can say, during the school year with my coach's ridiculous workouts (10×200/10×300/15×150…full speed).

    So if you could clarify more on what you mean by gaining through "fitness" I would greatly appreciate it.

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    jjh999 on #21064

    I can't speak to what other members mean by "fitness", but I think I know where they are going.

    If an athlete does not focus on building the overall work capacity and general strength abilities in the early stages of development, there is the possibility that the athlete may not have the requisite overall biomotor development to complete the higher intensity and volume of training as they move into the higher levels of the sport.

    As far as it being "easier" to develp speed as a younger athlete, I'm not quite sure I agree with you on that. I try not to (although I'm not always successful) think of speed in a vacuum or as components (acceleration, max v, etc.), but as a holistic quality that is influenced by many factors. A younger athlete will be lacking some abilities that will limit the ability to which the speed can be developed. I'm not saying, however, that speed work should not be performed. I'm very big on teaching young athletes how to accelerate properly, make the transition to maximum velocity mechanics, etc.

    Whew. Should've had decaf after lunch.
    :wow:

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    400stud on #21065

    [i]Originally posted by JJ[/i]
    I can't speak to what other members mean by "fitness", but I think I know where they are going.

    If an athlete does not focus on building the overall work capacity and general strength abilities in the early stages of development, there is the possibility that the athlete may not have the requisite overall biomotor development to complete the higher intensity and volume of training as they move into the higher levels of the sport.

    As far as it being "easier" to develp speed as a younger athlete, I'm not quite sure I agree with you on that. I try not to (although I'm not always successful) think of speed in a vacuum or as components (acceleration, max v, etc.), but as a holistic quality that is influenced by many factors. A younger athlete will be lacking some abilities that will limit the ability to which the speed can be developed. I'm not saying, however, that speed work should not be performed. I'm very big on teaching young athletes how to accelerate properly, make the transition to maximum velocity mechanics, etc.

    Whew. Should've had decaf after lunch.
    :wow:

    Okay, I think I got it now.

    So, for example, ext. tempo. That should be at its highest points in the early (GPP/SPP) stages of the year because it helps increase work capacity by strengthening bones, tendons, and joints while teaching the body to recover quicker which will be needed later on during harder sessions?

    Then for general strength work…circuits, hills, and what not to help develop muscular and motor strength for later on. Do I have it now?

    BTW, JJ, how do you periodize "speed" work for your athletes? Since you don't work on "parts" of speed, but rather the whole aspect of speed, how do you periodize things in terms of types of reps, distances, etc. (obviously more towards the 200/400 type).

    Thanks guys. I think this has been a good discussion. Keep up the informative posts.

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