Mechanism of fatigue in the 100m dash…

Posted In: The Classics

  • Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #19443

    History…..anyone up for case studies on the elite guys? This will shed better light then Sarah from Netwon (Harvard study) sedentary to me is non compeditive.

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    jjh999 on #19444

    Dave,

    Dan gave me a response like, "I'm still trying to figure it out myself". You know how he can be like Yoda with his responses at times.

    [i]Originally posted by coachformerlyknownas…[/i]
    Boys,

    Excellent reading.

    Been gone (San Diego) and since back am trying to catch up.
    Kids got smoked by DI and OTC athletes. Was oddly a little fun seeing them find out where they really stand in the greater world of T & F.

    JJ, what did you get from Dan P on that question? And as far as sprint/weight compare/contrast, I'd have to agree. The constant challenge is finding training modalities that approximate event performance but at a fraction of the time/distance/intensity/etc….

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    Kebba Tolbert on #19445

    in light of the new world record i thought that i would attach this file for people to analyze.. it seems in comparison to some of the late 80's – mid 90's runs that the trend is more and more towards entire race management. it's interesting to look at the following as well

    Ostrava                 Kingston           Athens
    3.85                     3.85                 3.83
    6.42 (2.57)           6.41  (2.57)      6.39 (2.56)
    8.10 (1.68)           8.10  (1.69)      8.07  (1.68)
    9.85 (1.75)           9.84 (1.74)       9.77  (1.70)

    once i figure out how to attachments in this new forum i'll add it on.

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    Daniel Andrews on #19446

    Wow, incredible.  I have a theory that myosin ATPase might be a limiting factor here, probably wrong about this, but I know that Elite distance runners have greater ATPase activity in their Type I fibers as some untrained individuals have in their in type IIb fibers, giving their type I muscle fibers the ability to contract faster than those of the untrained type IIb.  My hypothesis is that either the type IIb fibers need to endure more or type IIa and type I fibers need to be trained to have greater ATPase concentrations.  I am going to do some research tomorrow, i hope the library has the neccesarry journals.

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    Daniel Andrews on #19447

    Gathering what I could muster so far.

    For 100m Meters these all present a problem

    1. Na+-K+ pumps

    2. Ca+2-ATPase release from SR

    3. ATP/ADP/Pi ratios  -> Pi is inorganic phosphate for those with limited scientific background.

    The 100m sprint requires almost exclusive use of the phosphagen energy system, therefore I don't think lactate is a problem here with respect to fatigue in 100m sprints.  Replinishment of the phosphate ratios would seem the key here (bigger batteries).  How can this be attained and maintained?  One way I think is something I was hassled about early on as not speed training (max V or accel), but short speed endurance in using ladders 30-40-50-60 with 30-45 seconds rest in between.  I think these ladders help teach race management.

    ktolbert brings up a good point about entire race management.  A wild guess here is that the first time is at 30m, second at 60, third at 80, and 4th at 100.  With that information Powell held .85s/10m for 70 meters and in a different thread mike spoke about Powell's amazing speed-endurance.  Although I would like to see his splits over each of the 10 10m intervals he ran.

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    jjh999 on #19448

    Gathering what I could muster so far.

    For 100m Meters these all present a problem

    1. Na+-K+ pumps

    2. Ca+2-ATPase release from SR

    3. ATP/ADP/Pi ratios  -> Pi is inorganic phosphate for those with limited scientific background.

    The 100m sprint requires almost exclusive use of the phosphagen energy system, therefore I don't think lactate is a problem here with respect to fatigue in 100m sprints.  Replinishment of the phosphate ratios would seem the key here (bigger batteries).  How can this be attained and maintained?  One way I think is something I was hassled about early on as not speed training (max V or accel), but short speed endurance in using ladders 30-40-50-60 with 30-45 seconds rest in between.  I think these ladders help teach race management.

    ktolbert brings up a good point about entire race management.  A wild guess here is that the first time is at 30m, second at 60, third at 80, and 4th at 100.  With that information Powell held .85s/10m for 70 meters and in a different thread mike spoke about Powell's amazing speed-endurance.  Although I would like to see his splits over each of the 10 10m intervals he ran.

    Danimal,

    Thanks for reviving a pretty much dead thread. 

    I agree (as do most others) that phosphate may be the issue, but I believe it goes deeper.  Chiefly, I have always wondered if  the fatigue is above the level of the cross-bridge, rather at the ability of the Na+/K+ to come out of refraction to initiate the action potentials at the same rate prior to the commencement of the sprint.

    Also, Danimal, the Itallians used the "short speed endurance ladders" as you called it with success in the past…I think I posted something about this a LONG time ago.  I've personally used 2-3x3x60m with 90s rep rest, 5 min. set rest with success.  Wrecks your neuromuscular system.  Don't expect to get any quality done within 72 hrs of a similar session.

    KT, regarding race management, I think that it is simply an improvement (or an increased emphasis) on the quality of the acceleration phase as of late, combined with the appropriate alactic endurance development. Also, it could just be part of the normal improvement curve (which I think is more likely).

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    Daniel Andrews on #19449

    My personal experience with these short endurance speed ladders in my own training from 93-95 provided most excellent results.  I haven't been the same since then, mostly because I was a driving a desk, but my training during that period was almost exclusively that and the occasional endurance runs and intervals to make sure I kept my perfect physical fitness test score in the USMC.

    I believe the fatigue is at many levels.  The 3 levels I described above and also with Stretch-Reflex mechanisms.  Everything listed is trainable.  The question is how to best train for adaptability? 

    JJ, I like to revive the dead, especially when the dicussion is worthwhile.

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    Daniel Andrews on #19450

    Acta Phys circa 1998 there is an article that explains that the Na+/K+ pump is enhanced in endurance trained fibers regardless of fiber type. The downside for sprinters is in-season endurance training will have down regulation of Ca++/ATPase activity.

    Mike Young
    Keymaster
    Mike Young on #19451

    Acta Phys circa 1998 there is an article that explains that the Na+/K+ pump is enhanced in endurance trained fibers regardless of fiber type. The downside for sprinters is in-season endurance training will have down regulation of Ca++/ATPase activity.

    So as is always the case when trying to improve performance the key is in improving the limiting factor, in the case of short sprinters I still have not seen any convincing evidence to suggest that it is the activity of the Na+/K+ pumps.

    ELITETRACK Founder

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    Daniel Andrews on #19452

    So as is always the case when trying to improve performance the key is in improving the limiting factor, in the case of short sprinters I still have not seen any convincing evidence to suggest that it is the activity of the Na+/K+ pumps.

    I think it will be quite hard to get actual in vivo evidence done in research on humans.  It might be possible in other mammalians that we can isolate muscles during sprint type activity through electrical stimulation.

    I can envision tight coupling between Na+/K+ pumps, Ca++-ATPase activity, and ATP/ADP/PI ratios with regards to fatigue in 100m.

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    coachformerlyknownas on #19453

    …Also, Danimal, the Itallians used the "short speed endurance ladders" as you called it with success in the past…I think I posted something about this a LONG time ago. I've personally used 2-3x3x60m with 90s rep rest, 5 min. set rest with success. Wrecks your neuromuscular system. Don't expect to get any quality done within 72 hrs of a similar session…

    Had our sprinters do something quite similar for relay zone work and completely trashed them!  Big mistake! :no: Looking forward to subsequent days response in a 4×4 jaunt.

    Mike Young
    Keymaster
    Mike Young on #19454

    Let us know what the exact workout was, what level the athletes were, and how long you felt it took them to recover. Thanks-

    ELITETRACK Founder

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    coachformerlyknownas on #19455

    The athletes I work with are considered emerging talents that have recorded times of 10.9 (100m), 22.6 (200m) and 15.1 (110m) prior to this season.  With the exception of the hurdler, they are HS underclassmen.

    We pretty much have been stuck with outdoor workout temps of 46-51 with strong winds daily (southcoast MA).  From a fairly successful indoor season, consisting predominantly of short-long work, I opened the outdoor season with a long-short program (40s SE sprints) including hill acceleration work.

    Now in our 4th week, this is the second week where I have been doing relay zone work (60IN-40OUT).  Typically, the session consisted of 2 sets of 3 reps with 6 min recovery between reps and 15 min between set.  The microcycle would go: Mon/multi-stage warmup (with weights)-plyos-relay work, Tues/warmup-SE-extensive remedials, Wed/warmup-remedials-tempo runs, Thurs/multi-stage warmup (with weights)-relay work, Fri/warmup-tempo runs.  Extensive block work was added today after a very impressive 4×4 relay demo.

    We had a meet on Tuesday where the 10.9 sprinter ran 12.0 (-4.5mps) and the 22.6 athlete ran 24.1.  Granted they both ran into an aggressive headwind, however both mentioned that they experienced some problems in the race.

    I believed that the workout on Monday, specifically the zone sprints had more to do with it than the horizontal jumping prior to their races.  The zone practice was supposed to be submax.  However, they were flying in the exchange zone trying to go 2.1 and better.  By the time I caught up to them (working with others), they had already completed the workout.  Bang next day: track meet!

    Today, with Wednesday off, they both responded with fast and complete 400s, despite the weather.  The recovery from these sprints was so good, that we did some 20m block clearance/acceleration work.  It wasn't planned for them, but they jumped in and executed quite well.

    However Mike, I believe I made the mistake on Monday (regarding the choice of workout) falling prey to what I perceived as sufficient pre-comp conditioning-off of strong SpecEnd demos.  I supposed one working system (neuromuscular) was down enough to wreck havoc with for the complete organism?

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    Guest on #19456

    Great thread……

    Where is JJ!

    Mike Young
    Keymaster
    Mike Young on #19457

    Great thread……

    Where is JJ!

    JJ has been a lurker for the past 2 years….he's big time now and doesn't have the time to edify us mortals 😉

    ELITETRACK Founder

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