Hypothetical Thought

Posted In: The Classics

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        400stud on #9275

        Let’s say you have runner X. He’s been running for a couple years, but he isn’t GREAT at one event, but is pretty solid considering he hasn’t really been trained well and obviously has potential.

        Hey, we’ll use my pr’s for this kid:

        11.87 – 23.91 – 54.24

        Okay, now here’s a question that might start some discussion (hopefully)….would it be TOO detrimental for this kid, if he wanted to concentrate on the 400 as his main event, to take a ENTIRE season (indoor and outdoor) to work on his pure speed (100/200) with the occasional 400m race, and then the NEXT year focus on his race-specific endurance…or in other words, focused on 400m training for the entire year and probably every year after that?

        Would this work? What could we expect…big things or little things?

        BTW – This is a thought that crossed my mind, but no I’m not going to do it. Unless…. 😉

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        Jay Turner on #27994

        I'm not certain, but it would seem to me that's how one would train from one Olympiad to the other. Each year you'd work on certain things that need to be improved. So in my opinion I'd say it would work.

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        marshall on #27995

        I could see it helping in a sort of speed reserve kind of way….

        a) Wouldn't focusing on the 200 be the smart thing to do since acceleration is such a big part of the 100m, while top speed & speed reserve is far more important in the 200?

        b) Is spending a whole season on these races the smart thing to do? If you lack top speed why not just train for it while training for the race our "hypothetical" runner wants to run?

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        400stud on #27996

        a) We're referring to the 400m here, so the 100m doesn't really matter. But 200 speed is important for the 400m as well….VERY important.

        b) You COULD easily train for MaxV while training for the 400m, but the thought here is that if you train for MaxV and 200m speed for a season, it could carry over to the next season when you start training specifically for the 400m again. Training simultaneously doesn't allow for as great an adaptation as training separately.

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        marshall on #27997

        a) thats what I mean to say – 400 not 200; and special endurance where I said speed reserve, sorry got discombobulated there

        b)
        But still is it necessary?
        assuming top speed is the only problem I think it could be worked out inline with training for the 400.

        So the special endurance in the 200 has a carryover to the 400? OR is the 200 just a great predictor of 400 speed based on other factors?

        The 400m confuses and bewilders me

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        400stud on #27998

        The 400m confuses a lot of people. That's what makes it one of the hardest races to train for.

        So the special endurance in the 200 has a carryover to the 400? OR is the 200 just a great predictor of 400 speed based on other factors?

        It's a little bit of both.

        One thing I think you're getting confused here is the difference between "top speed" and "speed endurance". Top speed plays very LITTLE role in the 400m b/c the athlete does not (nor should they try to) reach top speed in the race. Speed endurance plays a big role in the 400m. The 200m is all about speed endurance and with the 400m, you need that 200m speed and endurance to help carryover to the beginning of the race, then special, race-specific endurance to help with the last part of the race.

        Again I re-iterate, that YES, 200m speed can be trained inline with a 400m training program, the question here is would it be more benefecial to spend a year training for 200m speed and speed endurance before taking the next year to train for only the 400m (assuming that the 200m speed is the weakness)?

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        rice773 on #27999

        I think that top speed actually plays a relatively large role in the 400m. An athlete that is capable of 15m/s will feel much more relaxed running the first 100m of the 400 in 11.5 than an athlete capable of only 10m/s will. This is of course, assuming that both athletes have the same acceleration and speed endurance abilities.

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        marshall on #28000

        400stud – by what to train inline with the 400, I didn't mean "200 speed" I mean pure max velocity, like in flying sprints. My thinking being along the same lines as rice773, that a speed reserve factor would be very nice.

        a whole year on 200m, overall doesn't sound like a terrible idea. kind of like a short to long plan done over a couple years. I think it would be good because it would allow one to reach a new top speed, and raise the ceiling for the future. But one would need a big gain if they focused a whole year on the 200.

        what about something more conservative like focusing on the 200 specific components through preseason, a big chunk of winter and not introduce 400 specific endurance stuff until late?

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        400stud on #28001

        Marshall – the plan you proposed is just another short-to-long approach where the "short" section is just prolonged. Sounds good, though.

        I agree with what both you and Rice said with speed reserve, though.

        But, here's my biggest issue. I don't think (in fact I know) that I won't be capable of a 49 sec. 400m until my 200m speed is below 23.0. There's just no way. That's why I'm debating on spending next season on endurance with speed-maintenance to bridge the gap b/t my 200m pb and 400m pb (about 6 seconds now) or to work on speed with endurance-maintenance sessions to bring my time down more off speed and then train for endurance later. That's the real point here, for me.

        But, that raises another question — is it easier to train for speed or endurance and should you train the easier or harder component first?

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        Jay Turner on #28002

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        Marshall – the plan you proposed is just another short-to-long approach where the "short" section is just prolonged. Sounds good, though.

        I agree with what both you and Rice said with speed reserve, though.

        But, here's my biggest issue. I don't think (in fact I know) that I won't be capable of a 49 sec. 400m until my 200m speed is below 23.0. There's just no way. That's why I'm debating on spending next season on endurance with speed-maintenance to bridge the gap b/t my 200m pb and 400m pb (about 6 seconds now) or to work on speed with endurance-maintenance sessions to bring my time down more off speed and then train for endurance later. That's the real point here, for me.

        But, that raises another question — is it easier to train for speed or endurance and should you train the easier or harder component first?

        400,

        It IS in fact possible to go 49.xx and not go faster than 23 flat. My freshman year of high school I was living proof of this. If you have great speed/special endurance then it can be done. My overall speed did not improve until my junior year.

        If it were me training someone, I think it would depend. If you have a 200/400 type, I'd train speed first. If it is a 400/800 type, I'd go endurance first.

        As far as easier or harder, I think this ties in to my last statement. . . it all depends on the runner.

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        400stud on #28003

        Gov – Let's put it this way. My 200m speed puts me at about a 51/52 400m, but I'm only running 54's right now. I'm a 200/400 type. I know a 400/800 kid that goes about 23.5 in the 200m and 2:03 in the 800m and ran 49.51 at region. I know it's possible. My only thing is that I don't know which aspect I personally should go after considering my speed puts me close enough to 49. 400m, but my endurance is lacking. As of right now I plan on doing lots of enduance work next year and far less speed work than this year to try to close the gap and if all works out I'll be able to open up in Feb/March at about 52/51. If I do that, then I'll have to decide if speed training or more endurance training is the way to go.

        It's so hard knowing so much….:(

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        rice773 on #28004

        400, are you running summer track? If so then i would focus on improving speed endruance for the remainder of the season and see how low you can get your 400 time. I feel confident that you will hit 51/52 once you peak your speed endurance and polish your race distribution. You have worked hard this season and what remains is just putting the icing in the cake.

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        400stud on #28005

        Rice – I am running summer track this year. Here's the schedule:

        May 22/23 – State Championships
        June 12/13 – Junior Olympics (state)
        June 19/20 – Grand Canyon State Games (least important of all 3, really)

        I was wondering what I should do to "polish" up my SE for the rest of the season?

        How about this….

        Monday – SE2
        Tuesday – Tempo
        Wednesday – Short Speed
        Thursday – Tempo
        Friday – SE1

        I think that would be good for helping my 400m time and the short speed and SE1 could assist my 200 bit, too. I think I could hit 52 this year if all falls into place.

        But, back to the original subject…..do you think I should focus on speed or endurance next season?

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        Derrick Brito on #28006

        i was actually thinking of suggesting this to you 400;). i think i read somewhere that you were frustrated with your times but only had an 11.87 100. i think working on your 100m time will help a lot in the 400. for example, your 400 time will always be limited by how fast you can run the segments. if you run a faster 100m time, the 100m segments in the 400 will require less energy percentage wise and you can use speed endurance more specific to the 400 later in the season or macrocycle to polish your 400 time off.

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        dark-knight on #28007

        400Stud:

        You need to do lots of work between 300 -600m simple as that!!!

        Give yourself a test: Try doing 8 x 200m at 70% w 60s rest between reps. If you can, then you are ready to move on to more specific work.

        Working on acceleration and top speed is useless if you have little to no fitness.

        You can't draw water from a dry well :tumble:

        PS. What are your PB for the 250m, 300m and 350m?

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        rice773 on #28008

        I'm pretty sure 400 is fit, he's been training well all season. That plan looks excellent though i'm not much of a fan of SE2 and would substitute another SE1 (just a different workout). As for next year, I would wait to see how you perform this season to decide. Focus on your season one rep, one workout at a time and move towards your season goals. Planning next year at this point might negatively effect you in the sense that you won't be as focused on the task at hand.

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        dark-knight on #28009

        I've seen 400's training and have yet to see him be able to handle 8 x 200m at 70% w 60s rest between reps.

        Training over a period of time has to be progressive in order to improve fitness.

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        400stud on #28010

        Rice – I understand your point of view regarding SE1 and SE2. I just thought that SE2 would serve more as a endurance-maintenance session to help with the end of my race, though the middle is proly not as strong as it should be. What if I did reps from 150-200m one day and 250-300m another?

        Dark Knight – Why do you define "fit" as a high LA Tolerance (based off the workout you suggest)? 300m PB – 40.06 back in January. Haven't tested since.

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        dark-knight on #28011

        Actually, the test that I described (8 x 200m at 70% w 60s rest between reps.) is considered an extensive tempo which is aerobic. Also, don't forget a large part of fitness is the body's ability to cope with lactate production.

        Based on your 200 PB, you should be able to run the 300m in 36-38s.

        It would be interesting to see your 250m PB to see if that is where the drop off starts to occur. I suspect it is…

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        rice773 on #28012

        400, that is exactly what I would do, maybe out to 350-400 at 85-90% on the longer day. Keep in mind that you may respond favorably to the longer (400+) SE2 reps. Last year i had a problem similar to the one you are experiencing; my 200 was 22.9 and 400 was 53s. I did a few 3x400m @ 85-90% with full recovery sessions and my 400 time dropped to the 50s like magic.

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        dark-knight on #28013

        How is 400 going to handle 3 x 400m@85-90% when he can't even handle 8x200m@70% ❓

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        Derrick Brito on #28014

        because full recovery is different than 60s recovery.

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        rice773 on #28015

        I've never really been a big fan of 'base' type training personally. Last year i probably couldn't have broken 2:20 in the 800 or done that session but i ran respectable times. What does running 200s at 70% (37sec each for a 52.0 sec 400) have anything to do with a race where an athlete will never run at a pace slower than 30 sec/200m?

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        400stud on #28016

        Dark Knight – My 300m test was back in January. Like I said, I haven't tested since. I honestly think I COULD hit 38 seconds for a 300m if I tried, but I haven't tried. 8x200m@70% may be intensive tempo simply because the short rests would cause LA to start building up by the 4th or 5th rep.

        Rice – You know that after 300m it starts turning into SE2. So why not just call it SE2 on the longer day, but instead of going up to 600m reps stop at 450, maybe 500? How often did you do that 3x400m workout? I personally don't like running 400's in practice (especially repeats) so why not extend it out to 450 and keep the intensity lower?

        As far as your question, yes those 200's are fairly slow, but it's more or less at test of aerobic power than anything with the workout. I just don't see how doing it this late in the year is going to help. I have exactly 1 month left.

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        rice773 on #28017

        Sorry for confusing the lingo, I did that workout three times in the two weeks leading up to competition. I've never done 450s or 500s so i can't help you there from an experience standpoint. I just hate running that long continuously even if it's only two reps with 30 min recovery.

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        dark-knight on #28018

        Those issues with extensive tempo and similar type of aerobic work is the reason why a lot of beginning sprinters skip it…to their own demise.

        These runs help in so many ways. For example, It helps the cardiovascular system become more efficiecnt. More specifically, it enhances glycogen storage, and help the body tolerate lactic acid.

        Also, you have made an error in your 200m calculation. It should be based on his 200m PB 23.xx (70% of 23 = 30) which is progressive enough to elicit improvements.

        Look, I have yet to see a sub50 runner that can't do something like 8 x 200 @ 70%

        I myself am a 100m sprinter, yet I can run the 400 in 48s and I did it without doing much runs over 300m in training. Why is that? My fitness was great! If 400 considers himself a 200/400 man then he should have no problems completing 8 x 200m@ 70%

        Trust me, there's more to running sprints than just doing workouts above 85%

        Why do u think world class sprinters like Michael Johnson, Maurice Greene, Ato, etc. do/did workouts like 8 x 200m in 28-32s in the fall??

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        dark-knight on #28019

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        Dark Knight – My 300m test was back in January. Like I said, I haven't tested since. I honestly think I COULD hit 38 seconds for a 300m if I tried, but I haven't tried. 8x200m@70% may be intensive tempo simply because the short rests would cause LA to start building up by the 4th or 5th rep.

        You are due for a test in the 300m to know for sure.

        If 8x200m@70% becomes an intensive tempo after the 4-5th then that is a sign of deficiency in your fitness. Intensive tempo should consist of runs at 80-90% not 70% and below.

        I realize that you have a month in the season so its too late to improve your fitness, but you also asked questions in the beginning of this thread about workouts for NEXT season. And my answer was that you need to work on your fitness.

        Right now you are trying to compete with very little to no base. This is making improvements difficult for you and leaving you more susceptible to injury.

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        Danny Tutskey on #28020

        I'm telling you!!! These will work!!!

        DATE WORKOUT
        10-13 Seagrave Drills
        10-14 Seagrave Drills
        10-15 Seagrave Drills
        10-16 Seagrave Drills
        10-17 Seagrave Drills

        10-20 Seagrave Drills
        10-21 Seagrave Drills
        10-22 Seagrave Drills
        10-23 Seagrave Drills
        10-24 Seagrave Drills

        10-27 8 x 200 @ :35 â?? 2:20 rest
        10-28 2 x 500 @ +:15/400 – 15:00 walking rest – Myrick Park Loop
        10-29 2 ½ mile run to South side K-Mart and back
        10-30 1 x 4 x 40m sled pulls with #40 weight on sled â?? 1 x 10 stadium stair runs
        10-31 20:00 easy run on the rabbit trails

        11-03 8 x 200 @ :34 â?? 2:16 rest
        11-04 1 x 6 x 40m sled pulls with #40 weight on sled â?? 1 x 10 stadium stair dbl leg jump
        11-05 3 x 1200 @ 5:00 – walk 3:00 between runs – Cass Street Park
        11-06 3 x 29th street hill runs [ run up â?? walk down]
        11-07 25:00 run with the team

        11-10 8 x 200 @ :33 – 5 man relay style – on the track
        11-11 4 x 500 @ +22:/400 – 3:00 walking rest in Myrick Park
        11-12 15:00 easy run on rabbit trails
        11-13 2 x 3 x 40 meter sleds with #40 weight on the sled â?? 2 x 3 x Myrick Park Short Hill [sprint up/walk down]
        11-14 1 x 200 @ :33 – 5:00 rest – 3 x 800 @ 2:45 – 10:00 rest

        11-17 8 x 200 @ :32 – 2:08 rest
        11-18 3 x 6 x short hill runs – run up/jog down in 5:00 – 3:00 rest between sets
        11-19 6 x 350 @ +:27 slower than PR pace – 1:30 rest between runs
        11-20 2 x 4 x 40 meter sleds with #40 weight on the sled â?? 2 x 10 stadium stair sprints
        11-21 3 x 1200 @ 5:00 – walk 3:00 between runs – Cass Street Park

        11-24 8 x 200 @ :31 – 5 man relay style
        11-25 2 x 3 x 29th street hill runs [ run up â?? walk down] [15:00 set rest]
        11-26 4 x 500 @ +22:/400 – 3:00 walking rest in Myrick Park [1pm practice – Fri classes]

        12-01 8 x 200 @ 30 – 5 man relay style
        12-02 2 x 4 x 40 meter sleds with #40 weight on the sled â?? 1 x 4 x Myrick Park Short Hill [sprint up/walk down]
        12-03 3 x 350 @ :58-:60 – 200 meter walk between runs
        12-04 1 x 200 @ :31 – walk 200 – 3 x 600 @ 1:38 – 10:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :33 – walk 200
        12-05 1 x 4 x 29th street hill runs [ run up â?? walk down]

        12-08 9 x 200 @ 30 â?? 2:00 recovery rest
        12-09 1 x 200 @ :33 – 5:00 rest -3 x 600 @+:14/400 = 15:00 rest
        12-10 2 x 4 x 40 meter sleds with #40 weight on the sled
        12-11 REST DAY
        12-12 3 x 6 x short hill runs – run up/jog down in 5:00 – 3:00 rest between sets

        12-15 10 x 200 @ :30 â?? 2:00 recovery
        12-16 1 x 200 @ :32 â?? 5:00 rest – 3 x 350 @ :56 -:58 – 200 meter walk between runs â?? 1 x 200 @ :33 â?? walk 200
        12-17 2 x 4 x 40 meter sleds with #40 weight on the sled â?? 1 x 4 x Myrick Park Short Hill [sprint up/walk down]
        12-18 20:00 easy run outside
        12-19 2 x 3 x 29th street hill runs [ run up â?? walk down] [15:00 set rest]

        12-22 6 x 200 @ :30 â?? 2:00 recovery – 2 x 4 x 40 meter sleds with #40 weight on the sled
        12-23 Seagrave Drills
        12-24 DAY OFF
        12-25 AY OFF â?? MERRY CHRISTMAS
        12-26 DAY OFF

        12-29 10 x 200 @ :30 â?? 2:00 recovery
        12-30 2 x 4 x 40 meter sleds with #40 weight on the sled â?? 3 x 300 @ +9.5 â?? 5:00 recovery stand
        12-31 1 x 200 @ :32 – walk 200 – 1 x 600 @ 1:38 – 5:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :32 – walk 200 – 15:00 run on grass
        01-01 DAY OFF
        01-02 DAY OFF

        INDOOR SEASON
        01-05 6 x 200 @ :30 – 5 man relay style
        01-06 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 2 x 600 +:14/400 – 15:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk
        01-07 1 x 200 @ :30 – 3:00 walk – 1 x 600-400-200-400-600 @ :38 per 200 – 5:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk
        01-08 1x 200 @ :30 -200 walk – 2 x 450 @ +:07/400 & +:11/400 – 15:00 walk – 3 x 200 @ :29-:28-:27 – walk 3:00
        01-09 1 x 4 x 29th street hill runs [ run up â?? walk down]
        01-10 1 x 4 x seld pulls with #35 of weight â?? 3 z 200 @ :30 â?? 2:00 stranding rest

        01-12 8 x 200 @ :29 – 5 man relay style – followed by 3 x 80 light accels walk 3:00 b
        etween runs
        01-13 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 2 x 600 +:13/400 – 15:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk
        01-14 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk back – 1 x 350 fast – 10:00 walk – 3 x 200 @ :28 – 200 walk
        01-15 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk – 3 x 300 @ +:05.5 – 5:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :33 – 200 walk
        01-16 2 x 4 x short Myrick Park Hills on the street â?? 1 x 4 x sled pulls with #35
        01-17 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 2 x 500 +:10/400 – 15:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk

        01-19 8 x 200 @ :29 – 5 man relay style
        01-20 1 x 200 @ :29 – walk 200 – 2 x 600 @ +:13 – 15:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :29 – 3:00 walk
        01-21 6 x 150 @ :19 – walk back to the start â?? 1 x 4 x sled pulls with #35
        01-22 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk – 3 x 300 @ +06 – 5:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk
        01-23 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 200 @ :30-:29-:28 – 3:00 walk – starts/sticks
        Don Bremer Triangular at Mitchell Hall at 5:00pm
        01-24 Gold Country Invitational at Minnesota â?? race a 600 meters

        01-26 8 x 200 @ :28 – 5 man relay style
        01-27 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk – 2 x 600 @ +:12 – 15:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk
        01-28 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 300 @ +:05.5 – 5:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk
        01-29 1 x 200 @ :28 – 200 walk – 3 x 200 @ +:04-+:03-+:02 – 200 walk between – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk
        01-30 1 x 4 x 29th street hill runs [ run up â?? walk down]
        01-31 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk – 2 x 450 @ +:05 – 15:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk

        02-01 8 x 200 @ :28 – 5 man relay style
        02-02 1 x 200 @ :29 – 3:00 walk – 2 x 500 @ +:10.0 – 15:00 walk â??1 x 200 @ :30
        02-03 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 300 @ +:09 – 5:00 walk – 3 x 80 meter accels – 3:00 stand
        02-04 1 x 200 @ :28 – 200 walk – 3 x 200 @ +:04-+:03-+:02 – 200 walk between – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk
        02-05 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 200 @ :31-:30 -:29 – 3:00 walk – starts/sticks
        02-08 2 x 4 x short Myrick Park Hills on the street â?? 1 x 4 x sled pulls with #30

        02-09 8 x 200 @ :28 – 5 man relay style
        02-10 1 x 200 @ :29 – 3:00 walk – 2 x 500 @ +:10.0 – 15:00 walk â??1 x 200 @ :30
        02-11 1 x 200 @ :28 – 200 walk – 3 x 200 @ +:03, +:02, +:01 – walk 200 between – 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk
        02-12 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 300 @ +:09 – 5:00 walk – 3 x 80 meter accels – 3:00 stand
        02-13 3 x 200 @ :31-:30-:29 – walk 3:00 between runs – starts/sticks
        02-14 Iowa State Classic @ Ames, Iowa â?? 400 meters

        02-16 2 x 4 x Myrick short hill on the streets
        02-17 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk – 2 x 450 @ +:05 – 15:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk
        02-18 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk – 6 x 150 @ :21 – walk back to start
        02-19 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 1×350 @+:5 – 15:00 walk – 1×300 @+:4 – 10:00 walk – 1×250 @+:3 – 10:00 walk
        1 x 200 @ +:2 -10:00 walk – 1 x 200 @+:7 – 200 walk
        02-20 3 x 200 @ :30-:29-:28 – 3:00 walk between runs – 1 x 4 x sled pulls with #30

        02-23 8 x 200 @ :27.5 – 5 man relay style
        02-24 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 1×350 @+:5 – 15:00 walk – 1×300 @+:4 – 10:00 walk – 1×250 @+:3 – 10:00 walk
        1 x 200 @ +:2 -10:00 walk – 1 x 200 @+:7 – 200 walk
        02-25 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk – 6 x 150 @ :21 – walk back to start
        02-26 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk -1 x 200 @ :29 – 3:00 walk – 3 x 300 @ +:09 – 5:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk
        02-27 3 x 200 @ :30-:29-:28 – 3:00 walk between runs – starts/sticks
        02-28 Pointer Invitational at Stevens Point, WI at 10:30am â?? 4 x 400 relay run

        03-01 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 5 x 200 @ :26 – 5 man relay style
        03-02 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 300 @+:06 – 5:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk
        03-03 1 x 200 @ :27.5 – 200 walk – 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 1 x 200 @ :27 – 200 walk – 1 x 320 fast – 15:00 walk
        3 x 200 @ :27 – 5:00 walk
        03-04 3 x 200 @ :31-:30-:29 – 3:00 walk between sets – starts/sticks
        03-05 WIAC Indoor Championships at UW-Stout at 3:00pm â?? 400 meters
        03-06 WIAC Indoor Championships at UW-Stout at 11:00am â?? 400 meters

        03-08 6 x 200 @ :27 – 5 man
        relay style
        03-09 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 4 x 200 @ :26 – 5 man relay style
        03-10 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk – 5 x 150 @ :21 – walk back to start
        03-11 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 200 @ :30-:29-:28 followed by a 200 walk – TRAVEL DAY
        03-12 NCAA Indoor Championships at UW-Whitewater [400 & 4×400 trial]
        03-13 NCAA Indoor Championships [400 and 4 x 400 Final]

        OUTDOOR SEASON
        03-22 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 8 x 200 @ :28 – 5 man relay style
        03-23 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 2 x 450 @ +:06/400 – 15:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk – 6 x short hill sprints
        03-24 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 300 @ +:09 – 5:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :28 – 200 walk
        03-25 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3200 of ins-outs (1st 200 @ :31, 2nd at :29 and so on….)
        03-26 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 2 x 350 +:10 – 10:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk – 6 x short hill sprints

        03-29 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 6 x 200 @ :27.5 – 5 man relay style – 1 x 200 @ :32 – 200 walk
        03-30 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 1 x 200 @ :28 – 200 walk – 2 x 450 @ +:08 – 15:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :28 – 200 walk – 5 x short hill sprints
        03-31 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk – 3 x 300 @ +:06.5 – 5:00 walk – 4 short hill sprints
        04-01 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 4 x 200 @ :27 – 200 walk – relay sticks
        04-02 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 5 x 200 @ :+:05 – 200 walk
        04-03 Viking Olympics at Rock Island, Illinois or Missouri Relays

        04-05 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 7 x 200 @ :27 – 5 man relay style – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk
        04-06 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 1 x 200 @ :28 – 3:00 walk – 2 x 450 @ +05 – 15:00 walk – 4 x short hill sprints
        04-07 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 1600 of ins/outs @ :30/:29….. – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk
        04-08 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 6 x 150 @ :21 – 150 walk – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200
        04-09 3 x 150 accles – 150 walk – 3 x 200 @ :30-:29-:28 – sticks/starts
        04-10 Phil Esten Triangular at UW-La Crosse – 1:00pm [TEAM PHOTO – 11:00am]

        04-12 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 7 x 200 @ :27 – 5 man relay style – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk
        04-13 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 1 x 450 @ +:04 – 15:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk – 4 x short hill sprints
        04-14 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 1 x 200 @ :29 – 200 walk – 3 x 300 @ +:06.5 – 5:00 walk – 4 short hill sprints
        04-15 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 6 x 150 @ :21 – 150 walk – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200
        04-16 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 200 @ :29-:28-:27 – walk 200 between runs
        Pomona Invitational at Pomona, CA & Mt. SAC Relays
        04-17 Blugold Invitational at UW-Eau Claire – 11:00am & Mt. SAC Relays

        04-19 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 6 x 200 @ 26.5 – 5 man relay style – 1 x 200 @ : 29 – 200 walk
        04-20 4 x 200 @ :28 – 100 walk – 4 x 200 @ :27 – 100 walk
        04-21 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk – 3 x 300 @+:06.5 – 5:00 walk
        04-22 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 200 @ :29-:28-:27 – 3:00 walk between runs
        04-23 Drake Relays at Des Moines, Iowa
        04-24 Drake Relays at Des Moines, Iowa / Loras Invitational

        04-26 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 6 x 200 @ :26 – 5 man relay style
        04-27 4 x 200 @ :28 – 100 walk – 2 x 450 @ +:08 – 15:00 – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk – 4 x short hill sprints
        04-28 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 300 @ +:05.5 – 5:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :30 – 200 walk
        04-29 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 200 @ :30-:29-:28 – 3:00 walk between
        04-30 WIAC Qualifier at UW-La Crosse – 4:00pm
        05-01 Musco Invitational @ Iowa City, Iowa – 2:00pm

        05-03 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 6 x 200 @ :26 – 5 man relay style
        05-04 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 300 @ +:05.5 – 5:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :28 – 200 walk
        05-05 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 6 x 150 @ :21.0 – 150 walk between runs – 1 x 200 @ :28 – 200 walk
        05-06 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 200 @ :30-:29-:28 – 200 walk
        05-07 WIAC Outdoor Championships at Eau Claire, WI
        05-08 WIAC Outdoor Championships at Eau Claire, WI

        05-10 FINAL EXAMS BEGIN – Day off from practice
        05-11 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 5 x 200 @ :26 – 3:00 stand recovery – 1 x 200 @ :28 – walk 200
        05-12 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 2 x 350 @ +:04 – 15:00 walk
        05-13 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 4 x 200 @ :27 – 200 walk – 4 x 150 @ :20.0 – 250 walk
        05-14 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 200 @ :29-:28-:27 – walk 200 between runs

        05-17 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 200 @ +:04-:03-:02 – 200 walk
        05-18 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 300 @ +:05.5 – 5:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :28 – 200 walk
        05-19 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 4 x 200 @ :27 – 3:00 walk between runs
        05-20 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 200 @ :29-:28-:27 – 3:00 walk between runs
        05-21 Leo Schnur Open at UW-La Crosse – 4:00pm

        05-24 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 200 @ +:04-:03-:02 – 3:00 walk
        05-25 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 4 x 200 @ :26 – 5 man relay style
        05-26 3 x 150 accels – 150 walk – 3 x 200 @ :30-:29-:28
        05-27 NCAA Outdoor Championships – 4 x 400 trials & 200 meter trials
        05-28 NCAA Outdoor Championships – 400 meter trials
        05-29 NCAA Outdoor Championships – 200 finals, 400 finals, 4 x 400 final

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        400stud on #28021

        Dark Knight – I totally understand that I need to work on my fitness and that's the point. I don't know exactly how. There are many different ways to attack the 400m, unfortunately, and it's finding the right one for me. I can tell right now that fitness and endurance (terms can proly be interchangable) are what I'm going to have to attack early for ANY chance at hitting 49 next year. Now, here are a couple different ways to attack it that I've seen:

        1) The way Danny above has it. Lots of long runs starting off at a fairly slow pace and building. But, the only problem is the lack of speedwork, and I think it has already been pointed out that true speed and speed reserve are big issues that need to be addressed as well as fitness in order for me to hit 49. This program revolves more around strength than anything which is both good and bad.

        2) The program I've really been looking at and toying with (though NONE have been counted out yet) is one by another coach that I saw elsewhere. It looks like this:

        Monday – 3x4x150m (50m walk / 400m jog)
        Tuesday – Long Hills
        Wednesday – R&R
        Thursday – 5-6x200m
        Friday – Long Hills
        Saturday – 20min Jog

        Next week:

        Monday – 3x3x300m (100m jog / 400m jog)
        Tuesday – 20min Jog
        Wednesday – R&R
        Thursday – 5-6x200m
        Friday – Long Hills
        Saturday – Tempo on grass

        This is the GPP and it goes for 6 weeks. It follows the same rhythm for the entire 6 weeks except that hills are replaced with depletion sets after week 2 (ex: 300m / 30 sec / 3x60m down to 200m / 30 sec / 1x60m). Where the first rep can be run anywhere from 70-90% effort (getting progressively faster as the weeks go on) and the supplemental short runs are run full out, but focusing on good form (triple extension, etc.). The 6th week is rest and test.

        The 150's and 300's are run between 75 and 85%. The 200's are run at race pace or +:02. Start off with 6 reps at +:02 with a 200m walk and build to 5×200 @ race pace with a 200m jog.

        These 6-week cycles are repeated 2-3 times before moving on.

        So far I'm liking this the best simply because it attacks speed, endurance and strength simultaneously AND early. I think it could really work. I know the WHOLE program and as the season goes on it gets more and more specific to the 400m with emphasis on 200m speed as well at some points.

        3) The CF method. Speed work is never neglected and SE work is implemented year-round. To me this is too fast too soon and a recipe for disaster…especially for under-developed athletes like myself.

        Any thoughts on the above programs or other suggestions?

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        dark-knight on #28022

        I'll tell you what…Danny's training program is detail and very good. Some people would pay money for that type of detail.

        You say that Danny's program lacks speed work, but in reality, he has power speed (4x40sled) work as early as OCT 30!! His GPP covers the aerobic base you need and also works on Accl. dev. It's really a great program!!!

        On the other hand, the program you mentioned is somewhat of a hybrid GPP/SPP. The volumes of your long sprints are too little to develop the aerobic base and the intensity (up to 80%) is too high.

        The idea for a 400m is to be able to have a high capacity to handle lactate. This far outweighs any .10/s that you can gain from a prolonged speed base.

        I'm sure you are aware that the acceleration that you develop at 40m would be enough to PR. in the 400m, if you can maintain it. Danny's example is hitting it a both ends. Take a closer look and you will see that it's a great program. All you have to do is copy it as close as possible and have the confidence to stick with it :eureka:

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        rice773 on #28023

        Long live the short to long program… today i did your 8x200m @ 70% w/ 60s and hit 34/32/32/31/31/30/30 on sore legs. I started out this year with SE1 and SE and never worked my aerobic base yet I was capable of passing your fitness test. I believe this to be because doing SE1 and SE trained my aerobic base indirectly. To me, it makes sense to train aerobic base secondarily since the 400m is a sprint race run at paces much closer to SE1/SE reps than tempo paces. It's great if you can tolerate the waves of lactate brought on by intense tempo but in a race you have to run through the pain not just bring it on many times over before stopping. If you work your SE and SE1 enough, you'll be through 300-320m before you become lactic anyway.

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        dark-knight on #28024

        Great! It shows that you are in pretty good shape.

        Look, I don't think anyoneâ??s denying the importance of Speed Endurance and Special Endurance work because it is very important. But, aerobic work needs to be added to help build a base. After all, even MOST short to long program use aerobic work such as extensive tempo.

        Extensive tempo (aerobic work) is a means to an end and not the end itself. Think of aerobic work as adding fuel to a vehicle the more fuel you have the further you can go and the more you can afford to put the pedal to the metal.

        The majority of elite sprinters do tempo work. Not because they are stupid and don't know better. They do it because they understand the importance of it.

        Michael Johnson, the greatest 400m man in history, did lots of tempo. This is why he was able to run 4 rounds in the 400m, and 4 rounds in the 200m during the Olympics.

        PS. How long have you been training (training age)? I assume you didn't start running track this year?

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        400stud on #28025

        Dark Knight –

        1st – The program he posted is the Wisconsin-La Crosse program. It was developed for athletes that are ALREADY running 49 or faster and who aren't as underdeveloped as myself.

        2nd – I don't have a freakin sled, nor am I going to buy one, so power-speed like that is out of the question. Plus, to add to that, sled pulls do have negative effects on stride — something I should pay closer attention to as a slower sprinter.

        3rd – when I say speed work, I'm talking some straight accel dev (not hills, stairs, or sleds) MaxV, short speed, etc.

        4th – The volume is way too high for me. I guess you're not getting it…..I'M FREAKIN UNDERDEVELOPED AS NO OTHER. I know that means that I should have more aerobic base and general fitness, but higher volumes are not the way to go. It'll lead to sloppy running and all kinds of other negative side effects. That's why I was attracted to the one program. The volumes are manageable and the paces are as well. Besides, who's to say I can't add some volume to the program anyways?

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        rice773 on #28026

        Knight, i have been training for four years; the first for the 1600 and the last three for the 400. Next year I will be part of a college program and probably will do extensive tempo work as you described, i hope that you are right and that it works for me. Nonetheless i look forward to trying the approach. Yes MJ did a good amount of tempo work but it was tempo range only because he ran his 200 in the 19s! His workouts hardly ever involved repeats of 200s or 100s if i recall, at least during SPP and comp.

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        dark-knight on #28027

        400:

        Answers to your questions:

        1st- The workout can STILL be done. Use it as a template…lower the speed if you can't complete it at that speed…use common sense. But, DON'T sacrifice volume for speed during the GPP on tempo runs.

        2nd- You can use hills to work on power speed accel. dev. CF GPP Dvd has a great example of this…

        3rd- Just like last year you are so worried about speed, yet you can't maximize the speed you have now ❓

        4th- Extensive tempos are done at 1600-2000m. per session to elicit the PROPER response. If you can't complete it at the same pace SLOW IT DOWN. These are NOT sprints.

        For all the knowledge you have acquired, you still don't get it.

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        dark-knight on #28028

        Rice773

        I can see why you are in great shape. Being a middle distance runner early in your career.

        Yes, most college programs have lots of tempo. Sometimes that's all they have…but that's another story :smug:

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        400stud on #28029

        DK —

        1) I have common sense. Don't start in with comments like that. I understand the speed, I was referring to the volume. And what happened to quality over quantity?

        2) Hills – OK. Anything from CF…I won't spend my money on anything with his name on it.

        3) It's a pride thing. I came from a 100/200 background so speed is always number one to me. It's my ignorance, that's all.

        4) I know they're not sprints, quit insulting my intelligence, number one. Number two, since you brought up CF, why the heck does he advocate 3000m of tempo for a 400m runner if the PROPER response comes from 1600-2000m? Riddle me that one batman.

        Watch the comments. We're hear to exchange information in a friendly atmosphere. We're not hear to badger or belittle. Yes, I have learned a lot, but putting it all together is the problem. If you're not going to help in a half-mature manner than don't help.

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        alex on #28030

        1) You say you can't follow the University of Lacrosse's program because it is for developed for advanced (sub49) athletes, yet the alternative program you posted and were intending to follow was used by Darren Clarke!?!?!?

        2) We're really splitting hairs with the optimal extensive tempo volume here. Maybe it's 1600-2000m maybe it's 3000 meters, but I just picked a random month in your current training journal (February) and counted a grand total of zero extensive tempo sessions.

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        400stud on #28031

        1) Yes the program was intended for Darren Clarke, but note the low volume, increased number of LA tolerance sessions (what Dark Knight pointed out I needed) and the general setup (some tempo included, but not too much and plenty of time to recover).

        2) That is a whole other subject as far as optimal volumes, but so what if I didn't do any tempo? I believe it is Dan Pfaff who is a very successful coach that includes ZERO tempo in his program. Even Mike doesn't advocate it. Tempo is an individual thing (though I do recognize it can be used very positively and am for it).

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        Derrick Brito on #28032

        400, i think youre worrying about individual aspects too much. get a basic plan and work from there. im obviously less knowledgeable than many people on this site, probably most of them. but i ran a 12.3 in the 100 last year and i ran an 11.6 this year. i think all that because i made a decent plan and tried to stick with it as much as possible. try not to think too much and overperiodize. if you find that doing dannys program ACTUALLY has too much volume, then lower it. dont worry too much.

        i believe in quality over quantity too, but were talking about TEMPO. worry about quality in your speed workouts and your SE, SE1, SE2 stuff. and you dont necesarily have to do tempo to stay in shape. im not exactly sure what to say next, so ill end there;)

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        400stud on #28033

        Derrick – I understand what you're saying about worrying too much about individuality and here is my rebuttal — I'm trying to walk on to a D1 school by my Soph (at worst Jr.) year, so I'm not in any position to play around. That's why I feel it's time to quit playing around and do what I gotta do.

        You say find a general plan and stick with it as much as possible…well, I found one, but according to the others it's not the right one. See where the confusion lies?…..

        There should be quality in tempo workouts as well to 2 extents – 1) You should be able to start and finish at the same pace and 2) You should try to maintain good form for all reps. With high volumes of tempo it makes it excessively hard to do both.

        Now you see where I'm coming from?

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        Derrick Brito on #28034

        i dont know anything about college so im lost;). but i think at this point, when you need to stop 'playing around' is to do what i told you. not to knock on you or anything, but i think your PRs indicate that you can benefit still from a more generalized setup. i think individual weakness and similar things should be worried about when you hit some lower times. i may be wrong, but thats what i think, so dont take that personally.

        yes i see your confusion there. but many of the posters in this thread seem to agree with dannys plan. because of this i say give it a shot. if it isnt working you can always change things. and i think the harder you work at it, the more 'right' for you it will become.

        i agree with your thoughts on tempo. im not saying to sack the quality in tempo, simply that it is not as important (IMO). with higher volumes, you can adjust the rest periods to make it easier first and change later to improve fitness. plus with higher volume you should probably do longer individual runs so you have fewer reps. there are limitless things you can do. if youre worried about quality, i think running longer tempo reps will help you maintain.

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        dark-knight on #28035

        400

        If you are not doing extensive tempo to build your aerobic base how do you build your aerobic capacity? And please don't tell me sprints between 80% to 95% because that is NOT aerobic.

        You talk about Dan Pfaff program. But don't forget Dan sprinters (i.e. DB, Surin, etc.) were already develop and in great shape. Plus those guys were 100m sprinters.

        Finally, if 8x200m extensive tempo is too much volume for you then maybe you should go back to being a short sprinter. But then again, I don't know too many short sprinters that can't do 8x200m@70%

        Not trying to bust your balls 400. Just keeping in real. Don't take it personal.

        Btw, 3000m is usually the max for extensive temp, I gave you the minimum so not to scare you as you seem to be highly adverse to conditioning work!

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        dark-knight on #28036

        [i]Originally posted by cockysprinter[/i]
        i dont know anything about college so im lost;). but i think at this point, when you need to stop 'playing around' is to do what i told you. not to knock on you or anything, but i think your PRs indicate that you can benefit still from a more generalized setup. i think individual weakness and similar things should be worried about when you hit some lower times. i may be wrong, but thats what i think, so dont take that personally.

        yes i see your confusion there. but many of the posters in this thread seem to agree with dannys plan. because of this i say give it a shot. if it isnt working you can always change things. and i think the harder you work at it, the more 'right' for you it will become.

        i agree with your thoughts on tempo. im not saying to sack the quality in tempo, simply that it is not as important (IMO). with higher volumes, you can adjust the rest periods to make it easier first and change later to improve fitness. plus with higher volume you should probably do longer individual runs so you have fewer reps. there are limitless things you can do. if youre worried about quality, i think running longer tempo reps will help you maintain.

        Cockysprinter, those are some great suggestions. :bounce:

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        rice773 on #28037

        Back to the original subject of this thread… I think you would benefit from increasing your strength levels next year if you are planning on running for a d1 school. I have no idea what your maxes are but olympic lifts would probably help you a great deal if you aren't already doing them.

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        Derrick Brito on #28038

        really? im proud:D! thanks for the compliment, maybe im finally coming around in my knowledge:D.

        im pretty sure 400 does olympic lifts. i still think if he betters his 100 and 200 time it will help him a lot in the 400m.

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        rice773 on #28039

        Both of you are quick to criticize 400, but have either of you ever actually trained for the 400m?

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        Derrick Brito on #28040

        looks like someone else is restless tonight. im trying to put as little criticism on 400 as i can. i realize i am not a 400 runner, do not necesarily know anything useful about training, and am not one who is as qualified to spurt advice all the time as others. but he has asked what others though of his thught and i have responded. i think developing his 100 and 200 speed would be greatly beneficial to his 400m time. i also think he seems to be a bit of a headcase when it comes to his times. just like me. so i also suggested that he not worry so much and get back to the basics.

        and maybe this wasnt clear, but i havent really trained for the 400. it was my favorite race in 8th grade, but ive never taken it seriously since. my PR in it is 58.21 as of sometime in january:wink:.

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        dark-knight on #28041

        I am a 100m sprinter, but I HAVE run the 400m in 48s? So what does that tell you?

        I think Danny and I are about the fastest sprinters that post on this forum and we both recommend tempo or some type of base. What does that tell you?

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        Jay Turner on #28042

        400,

        You already know what I've accomplished as a sprinter as far as times and performances are concerned, so I'm sure you'll at least entertain what I am about to say.

        1. Tempo (of any kind – but especially extensive) is paramount. If you don't incorporate tempo into your program, you will have no aerobic base (or at least not NEARLY ENOUGH of it), which will affect many things such as ability to recover from certain sessions quickly enough, aerobic capacity, an optimal supercompensation (peaking) effect, and indirectly will affect ability to tolerate LA. In conclusion, tempo is just what the doctor ordered for a 400 runner.

        2. As Dark Knight stated, "DON'T sacrifice volume for speed during the GPP on tempo runs." He was telling you to lower the speed of the tempo session if you want. Remember, extensive tempo is ANYTHING below 80%, so lower it as low as you need to lower it and start from there. As your fitness improves, increase intensity, shorten recovery, etc.

        3. The "Wisconsin La-Crosse" program, I have to agree with the masses, is a EXCELLENT setup. In fact, think back to the sessions I was using (and giving my athletes – who by the way are/were worse off than you are as far as being underdeveloped) back in the fall. They are VERY similar to what drivephase posted.

        4. As far as total volume goes, in a way, you kinda do want quantity over quality to start (developing aerobic capacity). As the season progresses, you go more quality over quantity. I view it like this. . . . . . How do you get more "bang for your buck" (MAXIMIZING quality for future sessions)? You do so by performing high reps and/or high total volume with minimal rest. Your body WILL adapt.

        5. I think you are worrying about working on individual aspects too much. You say you want to walk on to a D1 program. That's good. And you SHOULD do that. But take it from a coach, we DROOL over the opportunity to help develop an athlete who shows promise but has little things here and there that needs to be corrected. Nothing makes a coach happier than knowing he made something out of nothing (not saying you are nothing, but I think you catch my drift).

        6. WHATEVER you choose to do, have the confidence to stick with it and see how it plays out. In track and field, almost EVERYTHING is dependent on the individual. What's good for the goose may or may not be good for the gander.

        7. ALWAYS work on speed. But keep in mind, speed work has it's place in GPP. That's why it's labeled "GPP".

        In conclusion, I don't think anyone, including Dark Knight, is trying to show you up or anything. We are all here to help. Dark Knight is giving you what I usually give people – The hard, cold truth. No one, especially me, is intending to disrepect you.

        As you should know by now 400, if there is ANYTHING you need to know about ANYTHING concerning the "animal" we call 400 meters, just ask. I'm on ya side dawg.

        Oh, and to whom it may concern (attempting to bust your chops a bit), I'm 20.99 in the deuce and 46.37 in the one lapper, so you stand corrected as to who is the fastest sprinter(s) posting in this forum. 😮

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        dark-knight on #28043

        DaGovenor:

        You've got me on the 400m. But I think I've got you on the 100m 10.1* and 200M 20.5* :bounce:

        Seriously though, I like your info. Hopefully coming from you it has the right impact.

        Thanks 😉

        PS. With that said, I think this is my final post on the subject

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        400stud on #28044

        I have a few points I guess I need to hit here:

        1) I know nobody was really trying to criticize me as hard as I was suspecting, but rather, trying to tell it like it is. I'm just so flustered right now that anything can be taken the wrong way, so I apologize.

        2) On the same token, I don't think anyone here is really giving my program a chance proly b/c I didn't explain it well. A lot of runs are in the 75% range moving up to 80+% as fitness improves. The depletion reps can be run as fast or as slow as one desires and there are tempo days in which I can play with, etc. So, maybe I didn't give my own idea good enough emphasis for thought.

        3) Dark Knight – You say you run 48s for 400m, but your 200m pr is 20.5? Right there that should tell you that speed over all else is a bigger determinant in the 400m than fitness. Though your 400m time should be faster based off the 200 time, you're a 100/200 sprinter, so 45's aren't expected. Your fitness is good enough for the 100/200, but moving up to the 400m your fitness is not nearly as good as it should be. However, your time is faster, so I can't say too much.

        4) DK – I'm not saying you build aerobic capacity at all doing 80-95% work. Am I really coming across that dumb? I know that 80% and below is the aerobic capacity training and so the importance of tempo returns.

        5) Yes, Dan's guys were already developed, however I was just giving an example of a non-tempo program, that's all.

        6) 1600m of volume is not too much at all. I've done 3000m sessions before at the END of a season and still been alright. No, I'm not adverse to conditioning either. I'm just saying….

        7) Rice – I do include OL's in my program when I do lift. It's just between work, school and track work, weights work is usually sacrificed. However, I did get up to a 200lb bench and 200lb PC just before quitting weights back in December (at 155lbs). Strength is a big issue for me this year both in the weight room and out, trust me on that one.

        8) Just b/c DK and Danny are the fastest doesn't mean they're the most correct on the forum. They may have been blessed with great genes (though I know for a fact Danny busts his hump….no offense to DK). Honestly, I'd like to see Mike get involved and see what he says.

        9) Gov – All I can say, b/c I do agree with your comments as everyone else's, is that I know speed work should be included year-round, but I don't see any really true speed work in Danny's program. That's why I'm apprehensive at playing with it. I'm sure it could be included if things are manipulated correctly, I just need to know the basic purpose behind the everyday workouts and setup to see where I COULD include it. Thanks for having my back 😀

        I think that's it. I know no one is purposely trying to badger me (I hope), and I'm glad all you have my back. Just understand the frustration included with coaching yourself and especially trying to coach yourself to such big goals.

        For all those interested, keep the posts coming. Otherwise, thanks for the help. I think in my free time coming up I'm going to sit down and see what I can do again as far as planning and if anyone's interested I'll post what I have.

        Now wish me luck in my meet today 😀 100/200/400 hoping to pr in all 3.

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        dark-knight on #28045

        In regards to my 400 in comparison to my 100/200…. My 400 not being compatible has to do with lack of specific speed endurance as opposed to fitness.

        For example, Carl Lewis has a 400m PB of 47. Yet, his PB in the 100m is 9.86, and 200m 19.75. Trust me, anyone that can run a sub10 and sub20 has no problem with fitness.

        Btw, although I was always naturally fast, I didn't start out running low 10's. I started running low 11's. I did have to 1) Get into shape by building a base. And 2) then developed my speed and specific speed endurance for the 100m.

        Could I have done it without some type of tempo/aerobic base to begin with? My answer is a resounding no.

        Good luck to you now and in your future endeavors…

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        alex on #28046

        Re: Dan Pfaff's tempo work

        Dan does do a significant amount of tempo work with his athletes, even if it's not in the form of running. They do tons of GS circuits, low intensity plyos, mobility, and some low intensity grass running work, from what I understand. Almost all succesful programs have a significant low intensity componenet, whether it's running or not.

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        400stud on #28047

        The tempo work really being referred to here is the 65-75% running tempo. That's the biggie. Everyone does low-intensity work and GS work, but the big thing is the running tempo.

        DK – I understand that you needed tempo and base work, but there are many ways to achieve that base. Danny's program is one, mine is another, etc. I think you have a misconception here that I'm not getting what you're saying here and that I'm not listening, but I am. What I'm really doing here is taking a look at several different options to decide what would be best for me, that's all.

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        alex on #28048

        "Everyone does low-intensity work and GS work"

        You don't. At least not according to your training journal.

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        400stud on #28049

        The everyone I was referring to are the college and Olympic coaches that most of us model our programs around in some way.

        And since you brought it up, I was doing SOME tempo when I was doing the 200m ladders. From 32-29 seconds those were all tempo. After I stopped the ladders, that's when I stopped doing any tempo work.

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        Derrick Brito on #28050

        how did your meet go 400?

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        400stud on #28051

        Crappy. 24.16 and 55.44. I haven't even seen the 100m yet and I don't want to. Overtraining really got me this week. Now it's time to reload and get ready for JO's and possibly Regions.

        I'ma stick to this saying until the day I die — When in doubt….train yourself.

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        Derrick Brito on #28052

        well if overtraining is a problem, then maybe you should take it easy for a bit. you could even do….TEMPO! 😉 im half kidding, but you should take it low key to deal with overtraining. just cuz you take it easy doesnt mean you cant run as fast. itll probably help you run faster actually because youll be more recovered and ready to run.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #28053

        I've been keeping an eye on this thread and have been skimming through the posts as it progresses. I haven't added anything as of yet because I didn't feel I had the time to make a post that would contribute to what had already been said. What I've seen is some very nice discussion but getting stranded in the airport has given me some time to read through the previous posts and put together some thoughts. Here are some thoughts on the topic:
        *I donâ??t think you can ever be fast enough. I tend to think that greater top end speed is the primary key to success in every event from the 400m on down. Dark Knight gives the example of him self and says that even as a 100m guy he can still run a 48 second 400m because of his fitness. I would argue the opposite and say that the reason he can run a 48 is because of his 100m speed. The higher the top end speed, the more speed reserve one has. As a result, running at a given pace (such as your stated 12.5s / 100m objective) for someone who is faster will be much easier and SHOULD have less metabolic cost than someone who is coming to the event with a lower top-end speed. In support of this notion, there was some research in Track Coach a couple years back which clearly indicated that what separates the best from the almost best 400m runners is top-end running speed. For anecdotal evidence look at the top 10 all-time lists (especially the menâ??s and womenâ??s WR holders) for the 400m and youâ??ll find that most of those men and women were also very good short sprinters. Also note how well Marion Jones has run the 400m at Mt. Sac in previous years despite never devoting time specifically to the event.
        *Having said the above, if you canâ??t do 8 x 200m @70% with 1 minute rest, you probably do need to address some fitness issues but I still donâ??t think that would be the primary thing that would be holding you back.
        *I like the setup you proposed with 1 day of longer SE, 1 day of shorter SE, and one day of short speed work. I think that would be a nice way to finish off this season.
        *As for next season, I think a change from the norm could be very useful. I think a season concentrating on 200m type training would prove very successful.
        *Having said that, I have to add that I think that you could go either way (train for speed or endurance) and still see great results the following year. I think contrast in training is very important and often times it seems to be very beneficial to drastically switch up training stimuli not so much for any direct training benefits but more for the gains you will see upon returning to your usual training. Iâ??ve had very good results in strength training with this method.
        *Whichever way you go, general fitness should always be the foundation upon which everything is built. Note however that general fitness does not have to mean tons of extensive tempo or long runs.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        400stud on #28054

        Mike,

        Thank you so much for your comments, they are well-received and much appreciated. 😀

        *I do believe that general fitness and base training IS the number one most important thing in track and field for any event. That's why my emphasis has been more so on fall and winter training than anything going into next year simply b/c my lack of base and fitness has been my number one downfall.

        *After last night, I do believe truly that top-end speed and speed reserve are VERY important (more important than I had previously thought before). I ran the first 200m in 24.9h (according to coach) and he said I was "cruising" simply because I drove out of the curve than kind of ran tall and relaxed the backstraight before turning it on again in the next curve. He says I didn't get out fast enough (whatever!), but I think I proly went out TOO fast considering as of right now I'm only a 24-sec 200m runner (with potential to go 23's). If I was anywhere near going out in 24.9, then I wasted WAY too much energy as I came back in about 30 seconds….NOT GOOD.

        *

        Having said the above, if you canâ??t do 8 x 200m @70% with 1 minute rest, you probably do need to address some fitness issues but I still donâ??t think that would be the primary thing that would be holding you back.

        I'ma bit confused here. What WOULD be holding me back then?

        *As for what to do next year, I'm confused. I think (honestly in the back of my mind) that I should spend the next year working on endurance over speed (with obviously one day of speed work a week). Like DK said, I obviously can't utilize the speed I have now, so why try to gain more? (or something to that effect :P).

        *Now having said that, mike, which proposed plan would YOU think benefit me more? You can tell by UW-LX that they do lots of tempo work, etc. and they start off tons of base. One thing I want to clear up, though is that all the runs in my plan start off as ext. tempo (around 75-80%) and build into much faster runs. If I did my plan, I'd do 3 6-week cycles where each cycle the runs would get progressively faster where on the 3rd it'd be closer to the 85-90% range (unless I didn't take well to it earlier, obviously) and that would allow me to transition into faster runs smoother, IMO. However, I'm not trying to be biased or knock the LX program, I'm just trying to make sure you have a CLEAR picture of where each program is coming from.

        Thanks again and I look forward to more comments from EVERYONE. 😀

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        400stud on #28055

        Derrick – I will be doing tempo the rest of the year now. If there's one thing I've learned this year above all else it's that tempo is GOOD (for me anyways). I ran my fastest times when I was including tempo and so I guess I better stick with it 🙂

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        dark-knight on #28056

        Mike:

        Yes, I agree top speed is paramount. But, I can tell you that I would have problems improving my top speed with bad fitness.

        I've received a bad injury that had me inactive for a year and tried to come back without refocusing on my fitness. Big mistake! I plateau quickly and couldn't handle as high volume of speed work as before and sprinting as short as 150 felt like a 300m.

        You are of course also right that general fitness can be improved in a number of ways. Take care…

        400:

        You seem to be on the right path. Just didn't want to see you go another year on the same path as this… Stick with it, bro. Remember: "1 in the hand is better than 2 in the bush."

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        400stud on #28057

        Thanks for the kind words, DK.

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        rice773 on #28058

        I think that if you are planning on walking on to a d1 program you must begin to address your speed reserve this summer and no later. I think most d1 400m guys are capable of at least 22's. You can run until you puke all of next year working on your fitness but in the end, if you don't have the speed to run a fast 200 you won't be able to turn too many heads with your 400 times. I will repeat what I said earlier because I still believe it; fitness is not the main issue in the 400m and should therefore be trained secondarily. I believe you could patch up your fitness deficiencies while focusing on speed. I still really like the extended short to long plan proposed by marshall on page 1 of this thread.

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        400stud on #28059

        I totally understand what you're saying, Rice, however, on the flipside, those runners that have that 22sec 200m speed can also hold that speed much better than I can.

        Ex: Guy runs 22.0 for 200m. He goes out in 23.0 seconds and comes home in 25 seconds. That's a 48. 22×2 = 44. 48-44 = 4 seconds. That's what most collegiate 400m runners are capable of. Me, on the other hand run 23.91. I go out in 25, come home in 29/30. 24 x 2 = 48. 54-48 = 6 seconds. See the difference here? They can maintain their speed much better than I can, not just based off fitness, but specific endurance as well.

        My plan is that if all goes well this fall and winter, I'll be running 51 by the middle-to-end of February (that's also based on me hitting at least a 53, even if it's 53.99, by the end of this season). If I can do that, then I know that I'll be in good shape as far as maintaining my speed, so then I'll focus on building more the rest of the season while maintaining the endurance. That's the philosophy I personally feel would best suit me. But, with the workouts I'll be doing in the fall/winter, my 200m time will come down a lot as well, if not based off speed, but on speed endurance alone.

        Again Rice, I see your point and it's a valid point. However, I need to look at MY personal deficiencies and see exactly what I need to work on. And with my inability to maintain any sort of speed at all in the 400m, my endurance and fitness need to be addressed most importantly.

        At this point, even if I have to wait until after my sophomore year to walk on, I will. I said my goal was to walk on a D1 school. Yes I wanted to do it by my soph year which would be GREAT, but realistically I need to be running 22's and 48's to do that, so I have to look at my Jr. year being my first year running and hoping I can make it my soph year.

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        alex on #28060

        Atually, I think that you may be able to work on both at the same time. Since most fitness/endurance work is relatively non CNS-intensive, and speed work is highly CNS intensive, the two may compliment each other well in your summer program.

        Example Program

        Monday: acceleration/shortMaxV (30-60 meters, flying 20's etc.)

        Tuesday: Tough fitness day (This could be a variety of things from hill work to intensive tempo, to highly challenging extensive tempo.

        Wednesday: Easy extensive tempo

        Thursday: Longer MaxV day (60-80 meters, flying 30's etc.)

        Friday: Same as Wednesday

        Saturday: Same as Tuesday

        Sunday: Off

        You could do something like this or similar to this over the summer, and then progress into the Darren Clarke program you were discussing earlier.

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        Derrick Brito on #28061

        well if you want to play a numbers game 400, ill give a bit considering speed work. you said this:

        Ex: Guy runs 22.0 for 200m. He goes out in 23.0 seconds and comes home in 25 seconds. That's a 48. 22×2 = 44. 48-44 = 4 seconds. That's what most collegiate 400m runners are capable of. Me, on the other hand run 23.91. I go out in 25, come home in 29/30. 24 x 2 = 48. 54-48 = 6 seconds. See the difference here? They can maintain their speed much better than I can, not just based off fitness, but specific endurance as well.

        even with that 6 second defecit, should you increase your 200 time from 23.91 to 23.41 (which im sure you can do, just maybe not right now;) ) than you already cut off a whole second! how easily do you think youll be able to close from a 6 second defecit to a 4 second defecit? i think that will be MUCH harder. and something you can work on as your general fitness and specific fitness gets better.

        and a side note: i dont think your 'fitness' is necesarily holding you back. youve mentioned overtraining previously in this thread and in another thread. focus on recovery and relax about your races. earlier this season i was a serious headcase cuz i couldnt match my best times. but it was all mental, injury related, and i just forgot how to run my race. youve been working hard, and i know you can get sub 54 if you just prepare yourself properly mentally and physically. i think you mentioned your PR was 54.12. youre so close! just reach out and grab it.

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        Jay Turner on #28062

        [i]Originally posted by Alex[/i]
        Atually, I think that you may be able to work on both at the same time. Since most fitness/endurance work is relatively non CNS-intensive, and speed work is highly CNS intensive, the two may compliment each other well in your summer program.

        Example Program

        Monday: acceleration/shortMaxV (30-60 meters, flying 20's etc.)

        Tuesday: Tough fitness day (This could be a variety of things from hill work to intensive tempo, to highly challenging extensive tempo.

        Wednesday: Easy extensive tempo

        Thursday: Longer MaxV day (60-80 meters, flying 30's etc.)

        Friday: Same as Wednesday

        Saturday: Same as Tuesday

        Sunday: Off

        You could do something like this or similar to this over the summer, and then progress into the Darren Clarke program you were discussing earlier.

        400,

        To some extent, this is rather similar to what I was discussing with you on another thread a couple weeks back.

        Guys, in case you don't know, 400 and I was discussing a plan for summer training. I proposed a plan of going on what you might call short to long "hybrid".

        That is, starting in the offseason (I was wondering should this start during the summer on through the end of next outdoor season, or just work on general fitness during summer, then start the short to long in the fall), on CNS days I could start with low total volume (and/or low rep volume) then work my way up higher as the season (rest of offseason, indoor, and outdoor) progresses.

        Ex:
        accel. development —> MaxV —> Short Speed
        intensive tempo —> SE1 —> SE2 —> Speed Endurance

        However, on tempo/recovery days starting in the offseason, I could do tempo reps at high volume per rep (or high TOTAL volume), then decrease as the season progresses.

        Ex: 5 x 600m reps decreasing to 6-8 x 200m reps by season's end

        Thoughts everyone?

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        400stud on #28063

        Alex – How about this:

        Monday – Acc. Dev.
        Tuesday – Tempo
        Wednesday – Triples
        Thursday – Tempo
        Friday – Long Hills
        Saturday – XC Run

        Do this for 6 weeks before going into the Clarke program. I think if I did this and made the best of it that other program would be "easier" (in the sense that I could handle it better) and I'd proly get more out of it.

        Derrick – I see what you're saying, but I'm still a firm believer that in order to reduce a that deficit like I have, you need to attack your weaknesses, not your strengths. I'm pretty quick (23.91 ain't TOO bad), so obviously my strength is in my speed. But, b/c of a lack of base work and such, I have not properly developed the necessary strength to be able to maintain any sort of speed I have. That's my thing. Yes, increasing speed would help….but only so much b/c if you can't maintain it, what's the sense in having it?

        Gov – Check out my above micro suggestion.

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        Derrick Brito on #28064

        i see what youre saying, it may be that we just have to settle for a difference in opinion. i like to put speed in everything…so yeah:tumble:. im not saying 23.91 is slow by any means, but if expect to run sub 51 youre probably gonna have to be faster no matter what. i, of course, am not recomending that you focus entirely on speed or endurance, but i think at this point in your career, speed should be given more priority. a 51 second 400 means approximately 12.75 second 100m segments. i think that no matter how good your endurance is, you arent going to run that with an 11.87 PR in the 100. not yet at least.

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        rice773 on #28065

        I agree! Though this may be a weak comparison, from the IAFF scoring tables your 100m PR scores you 624 points, and your 400m PR scores 665. Thus, even though you see your weakness as your endruace, your endurance still scores you more points than your raw 100m speed!

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        alex on #28066

        I don't really agree with those tables, because I've been a 100/200 sprinter the last few years, but the other day i ran my first competitive 400 ever, extremely slowly (this was after doing 100 and 200 finals), and according to those tables my 400 is vastly superior to my 100 and 200 (BS!). Where I live anyway, an 11.87 100 will get you way further than a low 54 400.

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        alex on #28067

        400- I like your new plan.

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        Derrick Brito on #28068

        well maybe youre a hidden 400 runner alex:roll:. what was your time btw?

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        400stud on #28069

        Derrick and Rice – I think we're not 100% on the same page, proly b/c I didn't mention this before. I'm not saying that I'm going to completely neglect speed development by any means, I realize that even to run <51 that I'll need to be low 23's, high 22's. I'm just saying that "I" feel that attacking my endurance early and building speed later will benefit me more in the long run than continuing to focus on speed and neglecting my weakness. Basically, I think to put things into perspective, now that I think about it, I'm basically proposing a long-to-short plan versus a short-to-long. That probably sums it up best. IF needbe the "long" part will be extended, but I feel that if I do what I know and what I have to, I should be able to start working more towards speed come outdoors b/c I should already be in good shape to begin with. Phew! That was a lot 😀

        Alex – Thanks. And what WAS your time?

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        alex on #28070

        Haha. It was an embarassing 55.2:lol:, however I have another crack at it on Saturday, at cities. I had run the 100 and 200 shortly before (12.11, and 24.33), so I was sort of already tired, plus I just had to finish in the top 4 to qualify for cities (which I did). I took it out really slow and just sort of held on. I think with a few more races, and when I'm fresh I'll be hitting the 53's (before telling me I suck keep in mind that I'm only 15!):D

        So ya there's the time, and the excuses.

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        Derrick Brito on #28071

        ah, that makes a lot more sense 400. i would still propose short to long…but thats based on my limited experience training just myself so far. what youre saying could work well too.

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        400stud on #28072

        Alex – 55.2 isn't bad at all. Especially considering you're a 100/200 type. My first open 400 after running 100/200 mostly was like 56.4 or something. So. you're not too bad off. Heck, I ran 55.44 Saturday. NOW who's slow? 😉 Hey, let's see who finishes faster, eh? We're at about the same now….

        Derrick – I've always been a proponent of short-to-long myself, however, maybe a year out of the norm could stimulate some development that would benefit me more long term. Thoughts?

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        Danny Tutskey on #28073

        400- I would just make sure when you come up with your program that you plan it all the way and stick with it. Try not to question your training because once you do it will show to everyone that you are losing confidence. To meet your needs as a 400m runner, I would do a hybrid of workouts that will give you strength, speed, but also a very strong base. I feel that strength and speed for the 400m are equally important. Build yourself so that you get stronger as the race goes on. Michael Johnson had a great blend of speed and strength. He could go out faster than anyone else could go out, but he had the strength not to fade as hard as everyone in the field would. This is what I would do for fall training work strength by doing 200's, 300's, 450's, 500's, 600's. Work acc. dev. with 30-80m sprints and doing starts from 30-50m.

        DATE WORKOUT
        10-13 Seagrave Drills
        10-14 Seagrave Drills
        10-15 Seagrave Drills
        10-16 Seagrave Drills
        10-17 Seagrave Drills

        10-20 Seagrave Drills
        10-21 Seagrave Drills
        10-22 Seagrave Drills
        10-23 Seagrave Drills
        10-24 Seagrave Drills

        10-27 8 x 200 @ :35 â?? 2:20 rest
        10-28 2 x 500 @ +:15/400 – 15:00 walking rest – 1600m run
        10-29 2 ½ mile run
        10-30 1x4x40m hills â?? 1 x 10 stadium stair runs
        10-31 20:00 easy run on the rabbit trails

        11-03 8 x 200 @ :34 â?? 2:16 rest
        11-04 1 x 6 x 40m hills â?? 1 x 10 stadium stair dbl leg jump
        11-05 3 x 1200 @ 5:00 – walk 3:00 between runs –
        11-06 3 x Sun Devil Stadium hill runs (200m) [run up â?? walk down]
        11-07 25:00 run

        11-10 8 x 200 @ :33 – 5 man relay style – on the track
        11-11 2 x 500 @ +22:/400 – 3:00 walking rest in Myrick Park
        11-12 15:00 easy run on rabbit trails
        11-13 3 x 6 x 40m hills â?? [sprint up/walk down]
        11-14 1 x 200 @ :33 – 5:00 rest – 2 x 800 @ 2:45 – 10:00 rest

        11-17 8 x 200 @ :32 – 2:08 rest
        11-18 3 x 6 x 40m hills – [run up/jog down] in 5:00 – 3:00 rest between sets
        11-19 4 x 350 @ +:27 slower than PR pace – 1:30 rest between runs
        11-20 2 x 4 x 40m hills â?? 2 x 10 stadium stair sprints
        11-21 2 x 1200 @ 5:00 – walk 3:00 between runs – Cass Street Park

        11-24 8 x 200 @ :31 – 5 man relay style
        11-25 2 x 3 x Sun Devil Stadium hill runs (200m) [ run up â?? walk down] [15:00 set rest]
        11-26 2 x 500 @ +22:/400 – 3:00 walking rest

        12-01 8 x 200 @ 30 – 2:04 rest
        12-02 3 x 6 x 40m hills â?? [sprint up/walk down]
        12-03 2 x 350 @ :60-:62 – 200 meter walk between runs
        12-04 1 x 200 @ :31 – walk 200 – 2 x 600 @ 1:38 – 10:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :33 – walk 200
        12-05 1 x 4 x Sun Devil Stadium hills (200m) [run up â?? walk down]

        12-08 6 x 200 @ 30 â?? 2:00 recovery rest
        12-09 1 x 200 @ :33 – 5:00 rest – 2 x 600 @+:14/400 = 15:00 rest
        12-10 2 x 4 x 40m hills
        12-11 REST DAY
        12-12 3 x 6 x short hill runs – run up/jog down in 5:00 – 3:00 rest between sets

        12-15 6 x 200 @ :30 â?? 2:00 recovery
        12-16 1 x 200 @ :32 â?? 5:00 rest – 2 x 350 @ :60 – :62 – 200 meter walk between runs â?? 1 x 200 @ :33 â?? walk 200
        12-17 6 x 6 x hills [sprint up/walk down]
        12-18 20:00 easy run outside
        12-19 2 x 3 x Sun Devil Stadium hill runs (200m) [run up â?? walk down] [15:00 set rest]

        12-22 6 x 200 @ :30 â?? 2:00 recovery – 2 x 4 x 40m hills
        12-23 Seagrave Drills
        12-24 DAY OFF
        12-25 AY OFF â?? MERRY CHRISTMAS
        12-26 DAY OFF

        12-29 6 x 200 @ :30 â?? 2:00 recovery
        12-30 3 x 6 x 40m hills â?? 3 x 300 @ +9.5 â?? 5:00 recovery stand
        12-31 1 x 200 @ :32 – walk 200 – 1 x 600 @ 1:38 – 5:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :32 – walk 200 – 15:00 run on grass
        01-01 DAY OFF
        01-02 DAY OFF

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        400stud on #28074

        Well, here's the program I setup for indoor season. It's basically the UW-LX program, just slightly tweaked for individuality 😀 I think with this program I can go into March running at least 52, hopefully 51 and then come outdoor season (March) start developing 200 speed while maintaining the new-found endurance.

        I believe that if I can go into March already running 51/52, with the speed training and endurance-maintenance work I can go 49 in the open, or at least split 49 while going 50 in the open. But the goal is 49. open.

        Here it is (thoughts are appreciated 😉 ):

        10/4 – Seagrave Drills
        10/5 – Seagrave Drills
        10/6 – Seagrave Drills
        10/7 – Seagrave Drills
        10/8 – Seagrave Drills

        10/11 – Seagrave Drills
        10/12 – Seagrave Drills
        10/13 – Seagrave Drills
        10/14 – Seagrave Drills
        10/15 – Seagrave Drills

        10/18 – 8 x 200 @ :35 (2:30 rest)
        10/19 – 2 x 500 @ +:15 (15min) / 1600m run
        10/20 – 2 ½ mile run
        10/21 – Plyos I / 2 x 10 Stadiums
        10/22 – 20:00 easy run

        10/25 – 8 x 200 @ :34 (2:15 rest)
        10/26 – Plyos I / 2 x 10 Stadiums
        10/27 – 3 x 1200 @ 5:00 (3min walk)
        10/28 – 3 x ASU Hills (200M) (sprint up – walk down)
        10/29 – 25:00 run

        11/1 – 8 x 200 @ :33 (5-man relay style)
        11/2 – 4 x 500 @ +:22 / 400 (3min)
        11/3 – 15:00 run
        11/4 – 2 x 6 x ASU Hills (40m) (sprint up – walk down) – 5 min b/t sets
        11/5 – 1 x 200 @ :33 (5min rest) / 3 x 800 @ 2:45 (10min rest)

        11/8 – 8 x 200 @ :32 (2:15)
        11/9 – 3 x 6 x ASU Hills (40m) (sprint up – walk down) – 5 min b/t sets
        11/10 – 6 x 350 @ +:27 slower than PR pace (1:30 rest)
        11/11 – Plyos I / 2 x 10 stadiums
        11/12 – 3 x 1200 @ 5:00 (3min walk)

        11/15 – 8 x 200 @ :30 (5-man relay style)
        11/16 – 2 x 4 x ASU Hills (40m) (sprint up – walk down) – 5 min b/t sets
        11/17 – 3 x 350 @ :58-:60 (200m walk)
        11/18 – 1 x 200 @ :31 / 3 x 600 @ 1:38 (10min walk) / 1 x 200 @ :33
        11/19 – Plyos II / 2 x 10 Stadiums

        11/22 – 8 x 200 @ :31 (5-man relay style)
        11/23 – 2 x 3 x ASU Hills (200m) (run up — walk down) – 15:00 rest
        11/24 – 4 x 500 @ +:22 / 400 (3:00 walking rest)

        11/29 – 9 x 200 @ :30 (2min)
        11/30 – 1 x 200 @ :33 / 3 x 600 @ +:14 / 400 (15min)
        12/1 – Plyos I / 2 x 10 Stadiums
        12/2 – 20:00 run
        12/3 – 3 x 6 x ASU Hills (40m) (sprint up – walk down) – 5 min b/t sets

        12/6 – 10 x 200 @ :30 (2 min)
        12/7 – 1 x 200 @ :32 / 3 x 350 @ :56-:58 (3min walk) / 1 x 200 @ :33
        12/8 – Plyos II / 2 x 10 Stadiums
        12/9 – 20:00 run
        12/10 – 2 x 3 x ASU Hills (200m) – run up / walk down (15min rest)

        12/13 – 6 x 200 @ :30 (5-man relay style)
        12/14 – 3 x 150 accels / 2 x 600 @ +:14 (15 min) / 1 x 200 @ :30
        12/15 – 1 x 200 @ :30 / 600-400-200-400-600 @ :38 / 200m (5min) / 1 x 200 @ :30
        12/16 – 1 x 200 @ :30 / 2 x 450 @ +:07 & +:11 (15 min) / 3 x 200 @ :29-:28-:27
        12/17 – Plyos II / 3 x 10 Stadiums
        12/18 – 3 x 3 x ASU Hills (200m) (sprint up – walk down) – 5 min b/t sets

        12/20 – 8 x 200 @ :29 (5-man relay style)
        12/21 – 3 x 150 accels / 2 x 600 @ +:13 (15 min) / 1 x 200 @ :30
        12/22 – 3 x 150 accels / 1 x 350 FAST (10min) / 3 x 200 @ :28 (200 walk)
        12/23 – 1 x 200 @ :29 / 3x 300 @ +:05.5 (5 min) / 1 x 200 @ :33
        12/24 – 3 x 150 accels / 2 x 500 @ +:10 (15 min) / 1 x 200 @ :30

        12/27 – 8 x 200 @ :29 (5-man relay style)
        12/28 – 1 x 200 @ :29 / 2 x 600 @ +:12 (15 min) / 1 x 200 @ :29
        12/29 – 6 x 150 @ :20 (walk back) / Plyos I
        12/30 – 1 x 200 @ :29 / 3 x 300 @ +:06 (5 min) / 1 x 200 @ :30
        12/31 – 3 x 150 accels / 3 x 200 @ :30-:29-:28 (3 min)

        1/3 – 8 x 200 @ :28 (5-man relay style)
        1/04 – 1 x 200 @ :29 / 2 x 600 @ +:12 (15min) / 1 x 200 @ :29
        1/5 – 3 x 150 accels / 3 x 300 @ +:05.5 (5min) / 1 x 200 @ :30
        1/6 – 1 x 200 @ :28 / 3 x 200 @ +:04 – +:03 – +:02 (200 walk) / 1 x 200 @ :30
        1/7 – 1 x 200 @ :29 / 2 x 450 @ +:05 (15 min) / 1 x 200 @ :29

        1/10 – 8 x 200 @ :28 (5-man relay style
        )
        1/11 – 1 x 200 @ :29 / 2 x 500 @ +:10 (15 min) / 1 x 200 @ :30
        1/12 – 3 x 150 accels / 3 x 300 @ +:09 (5 min) / 3 x 80m Accels (3min)
        1/13 – 1 x 200 @ :28 / 3 x 200 @ +:04 – +:03 – +:02 (200 walk) / 1 x 200 @ :30
        1/14 – 3 x 150 accels / 3 x 200 @ :31-:30-:29 (3min)
        1/15 – NAU Open

        1/17 – 8 x 200 @ :28 (5-man relay style)
        1/18 – 1 x 200 @ :29 / 2 x 500 @ +:10 (15 min) / 1 x 200 @ :30
        1/19 – 1 x 200 @ :28 / 3 x 200 @ +:03 – +:02 – +:01 (200 walk) / 1 x 200 @ :29
        1/20 – 3 x 150 accels / 3 x 300 @ +:09 (5min) / 3 x 80m Accels (3min)
        1/21 – 3 x 200 @ :31-:30-:29
        1/22 – Meet

        1/24 – 8 x 200 @ :29 (5-man relay style)
        1/25 – 1 x 200 @ :29 / 2 x 450 @ +:05 (15 min) / 1 x 200 @ :29
        1/26 – 1 x 200 @ :30 / 6 x 150 @ :21 (walk back)
        1/27 – 3 x 150 accels / 1 x 350 @ +:05 – 15min – 1 x 300 @ +:04 – 10min – 1 x 250 @ +:03 – 10min – 1 x 200 @ +:02 – 10min – 1 x 200 @ +:07
        1/28 – 3 x 200 @ :30-:29-:28 (3min)
        1/29 – Meet

        1/31 – 8 x 200 @ :27.5 (5-man relay style)
        2/1 – 3 x 150 accels / 1 x 350 @ +:05 – 15min – 1 x 300 @ +:04 – 10min – 1 x 250 @ +:03 – 10min – 1 x 200 @ +:02 – 10min – 1 x 200 @ +:07
        2/2 – 1 x 200 @ :30 / 6 x 150 @ :21 (walk back)
        2/3 – 3 x 150 accels / 1 x 200 @ :29 – 3 min – 3 x 300 @ +:09 (5 min) / 1 x 200 @ :30
        2/4 – 3 x 200 @ :30-:29-:28 (3 min)
        2/5 – Mountain Tâ??s Invitational (NAU)

        2/7 – 3 x 150 accels / 5 x 200 @ :26 (5-man relay style)
        2/8 – 3 x 150 accels / 3 x 300 @ +:06 (5min walk) / 1 x 200 @ :29
        2/9 – 8 x 200 @ :30 (200 walk)
        2/10 – 1 x 200 @ :27.5 / 3 x 150 accels / 1 x 200 @ :27 (200 walk) / 1 x 320 FAST (15min) / 3 x 200 @ :27 (5min)
        2/11 – 3 x 200 @ :31-:30-:29 (3min walk)

        2/14 – 6 x 200 @ :27 (5-man relay style)
        2/15 – 3 x 150 accels / 4 x 200 @ :26 (5-man relay style)
        2/16 – Seagrave
        2/17 – 1 x 200 @ :30 / 5 x 150 @ :21 (walk back)
        2/18 – 3 x 150 accels / 3 x 200 @ :30-:29-:28 (200m walk)
        2/19 – Shakeout / Travel Day
        2/20 – USATF Indoor Classic

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        Derrick Brito on #28075

        that seems awfully specific, but maybe thats just the general idea?

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        400stud on #28076

        It's specific AND general (oxymoron????).

        Yes those are the exact workouts planned. But, remember, just becuase it's written down doesn't mean it's in stone. Yes, I have all the workouts planned, but if needbe, adjustments can and WILL be made.

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        Derrick Brito on #28077

        well you have times written down and rest period, so i wasnt sure if thats what you planned to do, or what you wanted to be around or what.

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        400stud on #28078

        They're all approximations, really. Basically, they're goals and I'll just have to play it by ear as I go. I SHOULD be able to hit all times as they start slow and progress, but if for some reason I'm not, I'll just back off.

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        rice773 on #28079

        I think if you followed that you'd be able to run a great 800m. The paces of most runs seem to be around 800 race pace. Since your focus is on endurance, i guess that is a good thing. Seems like the only speedwork is mixed in with tempo?
        12/14 – 3 x 150 accels / 2 x 600 @ +:14 (15 min) / 1 x 200 @ :30
        1/5 – 3 x 150 accels / 3 x 300 @ +:05.5 (5min) / 1 x 200 @ :30
        What is the reasoning behind this?

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        400stud on #28080

        Rice – These workouts were from the indoor part of the season. Trust me, they get much faster and MUCH harder as the outdoor part progresses. I just wanted to use the base/indoor workouts for my own base/indoor season and then outdoor I will turn more towards speed development.

        The accels are for warming up (after the actual warm up) and the 200's on the end are more for a cooldown effect. I don't think they ever get faster than :28, but these times were actually for the LX kids; I'll proly have to slow each workout down a second or two as they get harder.

      • Mike Young
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        Mike Young on #28081

        As with Rice, I'm a little skeptical that that program would increase your speed but as he said it will certainly enhance overall fitness and endurance.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Jay Turner on #28082

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        As with Rice, I'm a little skeptical that that program would increase your speed but as he said it will certainly enhance overall fitness and endurance.

        Well in your opinion mike would the Wisc. Lx program help increase your speed?

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        Jay Turner on #28083

        drivephase,

        I love the GPP program you have here. However, I do have a few questions to make sure WHEN I unleash it on my girls I am doing everything the right way. I'll go week to week in the program with any questions or comments I may have.

        1. On 10/28, the workout is 2 x 500 w/15:00 walk rest. All of the workouts over 400m I assumed this could be used for a 48.xx second quarter-miler. If this is the case, coming through the 400 at +15 sec./400 is about 76%, which would make this extensive tempo pace. Why do you need 15 min. recovery for ext. tempo (no matter the distance)?

        2. On 11/5, is 3 x 1200s really necessary? As a 400 runner, do you need reps THAT high in volume?

        3. On 11/11, the workout you have (2 x 500 @ +22:/400 – 3:00 walking rest in Myrick Park) is more like what I would have done on 10/28 (the first question I have). So what I'd like to know now is, what is the purpose of the 10/28 session and the 11/11 session?

        4. On 11/14, the workout you have (1 x 200 @ :33 – 5:00 rest – 2 x 800 @ 2:45 – 10:00 rest) is kind of confusing. What exactly is the purpose of the 200 rep @ :33, with 5 min. rest to boot? It seems like you're getting two different stimuli with the 200 rep followed by the 800 reps.

        5. On 11/18, when you say (3 x 6 x 40m hills – [run up/jog down] in 5:00 – 3:00 rest between sets) I'm guessing you mean 5 min. between reps, 3 min. rest between sets?

        6. On 11/19, when you say (4 x 350 @ +:27 slower than PR pace – 1:30 rest between runs), do you mean :27 slower than PR 400m pace?

        7. Why no intensive tempo meso? Any particular reason for this?

        There are other sessions I question, but these sessions are just like what I am asking about in the above questions (11/21, 12/04, 12/9, 12/16, 12/31).

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        Danny Tutskey on #28084

        The reason why there is 15 minutes walk rest is because it's the beginning of the season.

        They are doing workouts like that just a few times during their fall training. I believe it's necessary for a college 400m runner, but for high school you can modify it.

        The purpose of this workout is just to work endurance and strength.

        The 200m at the beginning of the workout is just primarily a warm up. These paces can differ from athlete to athlete. This particular workout is based on someone who had run 45.29 last season.

        The hills can be done it two different ways. One where you sprint up and walk down and the other where you sprint up and jog down. What this hill workout is saying is you have 3x6x40m hills. Each set of 6 must be completed in 5:00 minutes with a 3:00 recovery.

        Yes, what you will do is take your 400 pr divide it by 8 because there 50m in a 400 eight times. So if you run a 60 for you pr you take 60 divided 8 times 7 plus 27 and you get what you need to be for 300m.

        They aren't there because it's early season work. The goal for these workouts isn't necessarily for them to peak at the Indoor National Meet, but them to have a monstrous peak at Outdoor Nationals.

        I have constantly seen people come in from HS running :50 or :51 400's for PR's and they are running :48-:49 their Freshman year.

        A lot of these workouts if you notice are not on a track. He likes to keep the guys off the track to help keep them fresher because our indoor track sucks. It's a 200m track with the tightest turns you will ever see. They don't have home meets anymore because no one wants to come race there. The last 49 point 400m was in 1997. The 400m guys don't race on it anymore. It is tough on your knee, shins and hips. So we would stay outside until January. If it were in the 40's anytime in the winter and there wasn't snow on the track we would go outside to workout to get away that hole.

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        400stud on #28085

        Mike – Basically I've determined that I'm going to train long-to-short next year. So, my indoor season will be used not necessarily to increase speed, but to increase fitness and endurance and then outdoors I will turn towards speed development.

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        Jay Turner on #28086

        [i]Originally posted by drivephase1015[/i]
        The reason why there is 15 minutes walk rest is because it's the beginning of the season.

        Fair enough. I understand.

        They are doing workouts like that just a few times during their fall training. I believe it's necessary for a college 400m runner, but for high school you can modify it.

        I understand this as well.

        The purpose of this workout is just to work endurance and strength.

        I knew what this particular workout accomplished, but you kinda confused me because of the first one I questioned.

        The 200m at the beginning of the workout is just primarily a warm up. These paces can differ from athlete to athlete. This particular workout is based on someone who had run 45.29 last season.

        Oh ok.

        The hills can be done it two different ways. One where you sprint up and walk down and the other where you sprint up and jog down. What this hill workout is saying is you have 3x6x40m hills. Each set of 6 must be completed in 5:00 minutes with a 3:00 recovery.

        So what you are saying is each rep in the set of 6 can conceivably be completed in any time, as long as the TOTAL SET is done in 5:00, then 3:00 recovery?

        Yes, what you will do is take your 400 pr divide it by 8 because there 50m in a 400 eight times. So if you run a 60 for you pr you take 60 divided 8 times 7 plus 27 and you get what you need to be for 300m.

        Ok, I have a runner who is 1:05 in the 400m. So if I divide her 400m time by 8, that equals 8. So you're saying take 64 (8 x 8) and add 27 (which equals 1:31) and that's what her goal time per 350 rep should be?

        They aren't there because it's early season work. The goal for these workouts isn't necessarily for them to peak at the Indoor National Meet, but them to have a monstrous peak at Outdoor Nationals.

        What does not doing intensive tempo have to do with having a monstrous peak for outdoor?

        I have constantly seen people come in from HS running :50 or :51 400's for PR's and they are running :48-:49 their Freshman year.

        I don't disagree with this at all. In fact I concurr.

        A lot of these workouts if you notice are not on a track. He likes to keep the guys off the track to help keep them fresher because our indoor track sucks. It's a 200m track with the tightest turns you will ever see. They don't have home meets anymore because no one wants to come race there. The last 49 point 400m was in 1997. The 400m guys don't race on it anymore. It is tough on your knee, shins and hips. So we would stay outside until January. If it were in the 40's anytime in the winter and there wasn't snow on the track we would go outside to workout to get away that hole.

        I totally understand. In fact, IMO, all tempo work in the offseason is supposed to be done away from the track. Save your legs. You'll need them during the season.

        If you can read all of this, I do have a few questions in there somewhere. What are your thoughts to these?

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        Danny Tutskey on #28087

        The hills can be done it two different ways. One where you sprint up and walk down and the other where you sprint up and jog down. What this hill workout is saying is you have 3x6x40m hills. Each set of 6 must be completed in 5:00 minutes with a 3:00 recovery.

        So what you are saying is each rep in the set of 6 can conceivably be completed in any time, as long as the TOTAL SET is done in 5:00, then 3:00 recovery?

        Exactly

        Yes, what you will do is take your 400 pr divide it by 8 because there 50m in a 400 eight times. So if you run a 60 for you pr you take 60 divided 8 times 7 plus 27 and you get what you need to be for 300m.

        Ok, I have a runner who is 1:05 in the 400m. So if I divide her 400m time by 8, that equals 8. So you're saying take 64 (8 x 8) and add 27 (which equals 1:31) and that's what her goal time per 350 rep should be?

        Yes

        They aren't there because it's early season work. The goal for these workouts isn't necessarily for them to peak at the Indoor National Meet, but them to have a monstrous peak at Outdoor Nationals.

        What does not doing intensive tempo have to do with having a monstrous peak for outdoor?

        They never run faster than 400m race pace.

        I have constantly seen people come in from HS running :50 or :51 400's for PR's and they are running :48-:49 their Freshman year.

        I don't disagree with this at all. In fact I concurr.

        A lot of these workouts if you notice are not on a track. He likes to keep the guys off the track to help keep them fresher because our indoor track sucks. It's a 200m track with the tightest turns you will ever see. They don't have home meets anymore because no one wants to come race there. The last 49 point 400m was in 1997. The 400m guys don't race on it anymore. It is tough on your knee, shins and hips. So we would stay outside until January. If it were in the 40's anytime in the winter and there wasn't snow on the track we would go outside to workout to get away that hole.

        I totally understand. In fact, IMO, all tempo work in the offseason is supposed to be done away from the track. Save your legs. You'll need them during the season.

        If you can read all of this, I do have a few questions in there somewhere. What are your thoughts to these? [/quote]

        I hope I answered everything, if not, keep on asking!

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        Jay Turner on #28088

        The only question left to ask at this time is concerning the intensive tempo. Can you elaborate on your reasoning for not doing it? You say they never run faster than 400m race pace. Go into a little more detail if you don't mind.

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        Danny Tutskey on #28089

        [i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
        The only question left to ask at this time is concerning the intensive tempo. Can you elaborate on your reasoning for not doing it? You say they never run faster than 400m race pace. Go into a little more detail if you don't mind.

        The main energy systems used in a 400m race is a ATP-PC. All the work is to develop these systems.

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        Jay Turner on #28090

        Yeah I understand that. But intensive tempo does this as well. How does NOT doing intensive tempo in December cause you to have a better peak at the end of outdoor in May or June?

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        Jay Turner on #28091

        Hey drivephase,

        I tweaked the setup you posted to fit my girls' needs. What do you think of it now? In case this is needed, all of my 400 runners are between 62-65 at the moment.

        I also have a couple more questions to ask about this.

        1. You still haven't answered my above post asking you to explain to me what not doing intensive tempo has to do with having a better peak.

        2. Is there any testing involved in this program, or do you train straight through until January?

        3. This program begins in mid October. What are you supposed to do prior to this? (June-October)

        4. Assuming you follow up this program accordingly, would you consider this setup long to short, or short to long?

        5. The goal times that you had for you and your team, are these goal times based off of your PRs, or off of what you can run at that point in time. (hypothetical example: the 48 sec. 400m you ran last year, or the 50.7 you can do right at this particular moment?)

        DATE WORKOUT
        10/13 â?? 10/17 [Seagrave Drills]

        10/20 â?? 10/24 [Seagrave Drills]

        10-27 8 x 200 @ :46 â?? 3:04 rest
        10-28 2 x 500 @ +:15/400 – 15:00 walking rest â?? in the valley on grass
        10-29 GS circuit
        10-30 4 x 40m hills â?? 1 x 10 stair runs
        10-31 20:00 run with the XC team

        11-03 8 x 200 @ :45 â?? 3:00 rest
        11-04 6 x 40m hills â?? 1 x 10 stair dbl leg jump
        11-05 3 x 700 @ 3:15 – walk 3:00 between runs â?? in the valley on grass
        11-06 3 x stairs [run up â?? walk down]
        11-07 25:00 run with the XC team

        11-10 8 x 200 @ :44 – 5 person relay style – on the track
        11-11 4 x 500 @ +22:/400 – 3:00 walking rest in the valley
        11-12 15:00 easy run in the valley
        11-13 2 x 3 x 40 meter hills â?? 2 x 3 x stairs [sprint up/walk down]
        11-14 3 x 800 @ 4:15 – 10:00 rest

        11-17 8 x 200 @ :43 – 2:52 rest
        11-18 3 x 6 x short hill runs – run up/jog down in 5:00 – 3:00 rest between sets
        11-19 6 x 350 @ +:27 slower than PR pace – 1:30 rest between runs
        11-20 2 x 4 x 40 meter hills â?? 2 x 10 stair sprints
        11-21 3 x 700 @ 3:15 – walk 3:00 between runs â?? in the valley on grass

        11-24 8 x 200 @ :42 – 5 person relay style
        11-25 2 x 3 x hill runs [run up â?? walk down] [15:00 set rest]
        11-26 4 x 500 @ +:22/400 – 3:00 walking rest â?? in the valley on grass

        12-01 8 x 200 @ :41 – 5 person relay style
        12-02 4 x Short Hill [sprint up/walk down]
        12-03 3 x 350 @ 1:30 – 200 meter walk between runs
        12-04 3 x 600 @ 2:48 – 10:00 walk
        12-05 4 x hill runs [run up â?? walk down]

        12-08 9 x 200 @ :41 â?? 2:44 recovery rest
        12-09 3 x 600 @+:14/400 = 15:00 rest
        12-10 2 x 4 x 40 meter hills
        12-11 REST DAY
        12-12 3 x 6 x short hill runs – run up/jog down in 5:00 – 3:00 rest between sets

        12-15 10 x 200 @ :41 â?? 2:44 recovery
        12-16 3 x 350 @ 1:30 – 200 meter walk between runs
        12-17 4 x Short Hill [sprint up/walk down]
        12-18 GS Circuit
        12-19 2 x 3 x hill runs [run up â?? walk down] [15:00 set rest]

        12-22 6 x 200 @ :41 â?? 2:44 recovery
        12-23 Seagrave Drills

        12-29 10 x 200 @ :41 â?? 2:44 recovery
        12-30 3 x 300 @ +9.5 â?? 5:00 recovery stand
        12-31 1 x 600 @ 2:48 – 5:00 walk

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        Jay Turner on #28092

        drivephase?

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        400stud on #28093

        I'm trying to figure out why you have 40 second 200m runs. What are their pr's cos that's ridiculously slow…

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        Jay Turner on #28094

        When drivephase posted the workouts, the first session (for example) was 8 x 200 I think all in 35 seconds. Now assuming all of the guys were 22 second 200m runners, that comes out to about 62%.

        All of my girls are around 26.5-28.5, and 40 seconds is about 70% pace for a 28 second runner. Does that explain it?

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        400stud on #28095

        Much better….

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        alex on #28096

        I think if the runs are done below 75% that 2:30 is WAY too much rest. For extensive tempo 200's I do them with 1:00-1:30 rest, which I think is the way to go. If you do the workout you currently have, your athletes will hardly get any training effect at all.

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        400stud on #28097

        I agree. Below 75% = lower rests.

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        Danny Tutskey on #28098

        The %'s don't mean a whole lot when none of the guys run over the summer. They just lift and let their bodies heal. Most of them run 22 or faster, however, they wouldn't when they haven't run since the National Meet of the previous year.

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        400stud on #28099

        That's true, too. Something else to think about….

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        Jay Turner on #28100

        Well my girls will be doing some sort of training during the summer. So with that being the case, should I shorten recovery time?

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        400stud on #28101

        Depends on what you're doing. If you're doing what you had proposed in the other thread, then you might shorten recovery time, or maybe increase intensity a bit. You'd have to play it by ear.

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        Jay Turner on #28102

        [i]Originally posted by drivephase1015[/i]
        The %'s don't mean a whole lot when none of the guys run over the summer. They just lift and let their bodies heal. Most of them run 22 or faster, however, they wouldn't when they haven't run since the National Meet of the previous year.

        drivephase,

        What do you think of the setup I proposed? And what of the questions I had for you?

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        Jay Turner on #28103

        Hello?

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        Danny Tutskey on #28104

        Sorry it's been a while since I've really had time to read a lot of the posts on here. I think the set up looks fine. On the days that have "29th street hills." Those should be hills that are around 200 meters long.

        I don't know what no doing Int. Tempo has to do with a better peak. However when they get down to 200's at @ +:03-:02, :01 that, that will be some Int. Tempo, just with a very short rest (2:00). They should be strong enough that they can do that kind of workout very easily. They will also be able to do at work of 4x200m at :23 w/ 2:00 rest very, very easily.

        There are testing dates in the program. One around Thanksgiving and two before X-Mas break. Typically you can have them run a 200, 300, or 350 at thanksgiving then 200 and 400 at the two trials before X-Mas.

        Prior to the workout beginning in October. From June to October just lift and THAT'S ALL. If you are going to have the kids workout during the summer with a program I think it may be a bad idea. Because most kids do not run until track practice starts in February. If you have them run from June to June they'll burn out, I've seen it happen.

        All of the runners are split into groups for the workouts. Ex. Group 1 Rock, Bockman, Toshner. Group 2 Svestika, Olson, Marcinek, Deterville. You divide them according to what they have run. YOu can adjust that as your runners run faster. When you run the 450's, 500's, 600's etc. Have them in their groups so that they are essentially running the same pace and not racing. You don't want to have your athlete that runs :52 in the quarter running workouts with someone who runs :47. He'll burn out from trying to race.

        Hope that explains it for you. Let me know of any other questions and I'll answer much quicker.

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        Jay Turner on #28105

        I asked you how come there is no intensive tempo in your program?

        You said:
        They aren't there because it's early season work. The goal for these workouts isn't necessarily for them to peak at the Indoor National Meet, but them to have a monstrous peak at Outdoor Nationals.

        I said:
        The only question left to ask at this time is concerning the intensive tempo. Can you elaborate on your reasoning for not doing it? You say they never run faster than 400m race pace. Go into a little more detail if you don't mind.

        You said:
        The main energy systems used in a 400m race is a ATP-PC. All the work is to develop these systems.

        1. So I am now asking, what does not having intensive tempo in your program have to do with allowing you to have a better peak?

        2. The test that's the week of Thanksgiving, could I give it that Friday (the day after Thanksgiving)? Or when would you suggest?

        3. Same question for the 2 tests before Christmas.

        4. Does this setup apply for 100/200 runners as well? If not, then what do I do with them during summer?

        5. Would you consider your program long to short or short to long?

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        jumpscoachmike on #28106

        "Prior to the workout beginning in October. From June to October just lift and THAT'S ALL. If you are going to have the kids workout during the summer with a program I think it may be a bad idea. Because most kids do not run until track practice starts in February. If you have them run from June to June they'll burn out, I've seen it happen. "

        Danny-
        What is your opinion on this subject for an athlete who takes all of August, September and October off after training 3x week in the summer and begins a program in November? (like the one you posted) So essentially the athlete is getting 3 months off of running/racing….is that adequate time off to be able to pick back up with an intense program in November??

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        jumpscoachmike on #28107

        Gov, Eric what do you think? 3 months rest and then begin to train hard core again? I personally think 12 weeks is adequate but I'd like to know your thoughts.

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        400stud on #28108

        Jumps,

        I think you should take as long off as you need. With me, I planned on starting in October simply becuase everything works out that way in planning. Everything blends nicely and falls right into place, so that's how I determined my start date. One thing you could try is giving yourself a certain amount of weeks to work with for indoor and outdoors and plan backwards that way to get a starting point. That's what I did.

        Otherwise, I think 12 weeks is fine. Most (aka CF followers) don't advocate more than 3 weeks off, but I think that becuase you run yourself into the ground for 8-9 months a year, taking off a couple can only help.

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        jumpscoachmike on #28109

        Thanks eric.

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        Danny Tutskey on #28110

        [i]Originally posted by jumpscoachmike[/i]
        "Prior to the workout beginning in October. From June to October just lift and THAT'S ALL. If you are going to have the kids workout during the summer with a program I think it may be a bad idea. Because most kids do not run until track practice starts in February. If you have them run from June to June they'll burn out, I've seen it happen. "

        Danny-
        What is your opinion on this subject for an athlete who takes all of August, September and October off after training 3x week in the summer and begins a program in November? (like the one you posted) So essentially the athlete is getting 3 months off of running/racing….is that adequate time off to be able to pick back up with an intense program in November??

        I believe it is, I've done it and all of the guys I ever ran with did it. It gives you time to heal up from the grind of a 9 month season. The longest I have gone is 18 months of time off where I just got as strong as I could and stretched often. I think the time off is more for the emotional and mental side that gets worn down over that long of a period. The program we did at La Crosse started off slow and easy to work us in slowly. After all we weren't going to be running meets in October, November, and December. The idea was to ease us, establish a very strong strength and running base. I've heard of people taking 2 or 3 weeks off and after a long season I don't know if that's the best idea.

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        400stud on #28111

        No prob Mike.

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        Jay Turner on #28112

        [i]Originally posted by drivephase1015[/i]
        I believe it is, I've done it and all of the guys I ever ran with did it. It gives you time to heal up from the grind of a 9 month season. The longest I have gone is 18 months of time off where I just got as strong as I could and stretched often. I think the time off is more for the emotional and mental side that gets worn down over that long of a period. The program we did at La Crosse started off slow and easy to work us in slowly. After all we weren't going to be running meets in October, November, and December. The idea was to ease us, establish a very strong strength and running base. I've heard of people taking 2 or 3 weeks off and after a long season I don't know if that's the best idea.

        If all I should do is lift during July, August, September then how should I set up each week? Could I do OL's on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and do core/med. ball stuff on Tuesday and Thursday?

        Also, in October when I start running again, could I do speed work only (accel. dev./MaxV, etc.) to possibly maximize training the top end speed?

        Thoughts?

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        Danny Tutskey on #28113

        Here is how I would set up a program for myself. Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, and your core work on Wednesday.

        Monday: Hang cleans, squat (back), leg curls, standing leg curls, hypers, calf raises, dorsiflexion, lat pulldown, curls.
        Tuesday: Bench press, DB incline bench, DB shoulder press, lying flyes, shrugs, triceps.
        Wednesday: Core work
        Thursday: Power clean, squat (front and/or back), leg curls, gluteham raise, seated calf raises, dorsiflexion raise, seated row, chin ups, curls.
        Friday: Bench press, Incline bench press, DB shoulder press, lying flyes, upright row, triceps.

        I don't see why you can start with accel. dev. I'm not sure about Max V so early. You could be more open to injury by starting out with too much speed. I liked to start out with it easy and establish, then build on my speed. I didn't want to come out and blaze right away because I didn't want to be sore the rest of the week because it was something my body wasn't ready for from taking time off from the track. I would do a lot of hills, sleds pulls etc in the early season as a substitute. That was how my speed would get developed in the early season.

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        Jay Turner on #28114

        The Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday setup is good but these athletes are very deficient in the core area, so I was thinking that two days for core would be better during the off season. Thoughts?

        As for speed work, when I said MaxV, I was just giving another example for any kind of speed work. It could be anything (accel. dev., MaxV, hills, stairs, sleds, tires, etc.). The point is could I do speed work on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and tempo on Tuesday and Thursday instead of adding longer intervals one day a week on either M, W, or F? Hence, maxing out the number of days per week I could work on speed instead of just one or two. Thoughts?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #28115

        [i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
        If all I should do is lift during July, August, September then how should I set up each week? Could I do OL's on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and do core/med. ball stuff on Tuesday and Thursday?

        Also, in October when I start running again, could I do speed work only (accel. dev./MaxV, etc.) to possibly maximize training the top end speed?

        Thoughts?

        Yes, Yes, Yes. All very good ideas.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Jay Turner on #28116

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        [quote][i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
        If all I should do is lift during July, August, September then how should I set up each week? Could I do OL's on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and do core/med. ball stuff on Tuesday and Thursday?

        Also, in October when I start running again, could I do speed work only (accel. dev./MaxV, etc.) to possibly maximize training the top end speed?

        Thoughts?

        Yes, Yes, Yes. All very good ideas. [/quote]Just to make sure, did you see the post I put on here right before yours (above)? Do you still think it is a good idea?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #28117

        [i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
        The Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday setup is good but these athletes are very deficient in the core area, so I was thinking that two days for core would be better during the off season. Thoughts?

        Why devote days to core training when you can address it every day. Core strength gets addressed with squats and OLs on the heavy lifting days and you can do some lower intensity work on the other days such as med ball work, gymnastics, or general strength work.

        The point is could I do speed work on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and tempo on Tuesday and Thursday instead of adding longer intervals one day a week on either M, W, or F? Hence, maxing out the number of days per week I could work on speed instead of just one or two. Thoughts?

        This is how we set it up for our jumpers and womens sprinters at LSU and it seems to work very well.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Danny Tutskey on #28118

        If they are difficient in core strength I would address that mostly. The other auxilary lifts, etc can be established at another or when they head to compete in college. Early season speed I would like to do sleds, tire pulls, stair runs, hills a couple times a week. Maybe you could have your speed day on the track on Monday, Sleds, hills or stairs on Wednesday or Friday. In the early season I liked to stay off the track. There are so many ways you could it. I like that set up though. I think your athletes would really benefit from it. Doing the acc. dev and speed work like sleds and hills really won't take a toll on them, it's not like they are really tapping into some a tough work load.

        What were you thinking for core work? I know med ball drills, but how about some body curls as well? Just some thoughts. I posted a circuit you could have your guys do to elevate their heart rate while getting a good lifting workout in. It's posted in here somewhere, take a look and let me know what you think. Its really tough and maybe that woud be something you'd want in an early season workout for lifting for 4 weeks or so.

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        Danny Tutskey on #28119

        It's in the strength and conditioning forum

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        Jay Turner on #28120

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        [quote][i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
        The Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday setup is good but these athletes are very deficient in the core area, so I was thinking that two days for core would be better during the off season. Thoughts?

        Why devote days to core training when you can address it every day. Core strength gets addressed with squats and OLs on the heavy lifting days and you can do some lower intensity work on the other days such as med ball work, gymnastics, or general strength work.

        The point is could I do speed work on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and tempo on Tuesday and Thursday instead of adding longer intervals one day a week on either M, W, or F? Hence, maxing out the number of days per week I could work on speed instead of just one or two. Thoughts?

        This is how we set it up for our jumpers and womens sprinters at LSU and it seems to work very well. [/quote]So how about something like this sample week:

        Monday – accel. dev. on track/OL's

        Tuesday – tempo/med. ball

        Wednesday – stairs/OL's

        Thursday – tempo/med. ball

        Friday – hills/OL's

        What do you think mike?

        Also, when you say the women's sprinters did what I proposed, does that include 400 runners as well?

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        Jay Turner on #28121

        [i]Originally posted by drivephase1015[/i]
        If they are difficient in core strength I would address that mostly. The other auxilary lifts, etc can be established at another or when they head to compete in college. Early season speed I would like to do sleds, tire pulls, stair runs, hills a couple times a week. Maybe you could have your speed day on the track on Monday, Sleds, hills or stairs on Wednesday or Friday. In the early season I liked to stay off the track. There are so many ways you could it. I like that set up though. I think your athletes would really benefit from it. Doing the acc. dev and speed work like sleds and hills really won't take a toll on them, it's not like they are really tapping into some a tough work load.

        What were you thinking for core work? I know med ball drills, but how about some body curls as well? Just some thoughts. I posted a circuit you could have your guys do to elevate their heart rate while getting a good lifting workout in. It's posted in here somewhere, take a look and let me know what you think. Its really tough and maybe that woud be something you'd want in an early season workout for lifting for 4 weeks or so.

        Can you do accel. dev. sessions in the grass? Or does it have to be on the track?

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        Danny Tutskey on #28122

        I think you can do it on the track. I like the set up. Your 400 guys could do the same and eventually you can branch them off into workouts that would better suit them. You could pull sleds in the grass also. I've heard of some elite runners like Marcus Brunson and Dwight Phillips doing that. Maybe for recovery purposes you may want to really taper the lifting down through the course of week so they feel fresh the following week.

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        Jay Turner on #28123

        [i]Originally posted by drivephase1015[/i]
        I think you can do it on the track. I like the set up. Your 400 guys could do the same and eventually you can branch them off into workouts that would better suit them. You could pull sleds in the grass also. I've heard of some elite runners like Marcus Brunson and Dwight Phillips doing that. Maybe for recovery purposes you may want to really taper the lifting down through the course of week so they feel fresh the following week.

        Then in that case I was thinking about having my 400m runners do this as well. But when would I start dividing the short and long sprinters? Could I possibly work on nothing but speed for all of fall (with long tempo intervals in between of course), then resume 400m training in January? For example during the fall:

        M, W, F is the same as I proposed above.

        T, Th – 200-800 intervals in the 50-70% range

        Thoughts?

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        Danny Tutskey on #28124

        Yeah, you could do that. You don't necessarily need to move quarter milers by themselves for HS kids. Just see how the workouts go at first because you can always adjust and move them. You could move them in January.

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        Jay Turner on #28125

        [i]Originally posted by drivephase1015[/i]
        Yeah, you could do that. You don't necessarily need to move quarter milers by themselves for HS kids. Just see how the workouts go at first because you can always adjust and move them. You could move them in January.

        That's all I needed to know. I think my plan is put together in my head. I'm gonna start a journal again in the fall and you, mike, jumps, and 400 can all help me out with it. Thanks Danny.

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        Danny Tutskey on #28126

        No problem, as long as you play on our dodgeball team lol

        In fact since we both coach HS'rs maybe we could come up the workouts together and use the same plan? Thoughts?

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        Jay Turner on #28127

        [i]Originally posted by drivephase1015[/i]
        No problem, as long as you play on our dodgeball team lol

        In fact since we both coach HS'rs maybe we could come up the workouts together and use the same plan? Thoughts?

        Yeah, coming up with something together would be good. What school do you coach by the way?

        And you don't even gotta ask about dodgeball. Just sign me up! 😆

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        400stud on #28128

        Ooh, ooh, me too! Me too! :dance:

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        jumpscoachmike on #28129

        Fellas…COUNT ME IN!! I get way too geared up for this stuff but that's the kamikaze attitude we talked about. Just feed off this energy guys……LIVE IT…FEEL IT…OWN IT!!!

        Alright time to take my meds.

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        jumpscoachmike on #28130

        Just a thought off the top of my head….it would be cool to all actually meet some day, wouldn't it??

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        400stud on #28131

        Maybe a USATF level ??? coaches meeting?

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        jumpscoachmike on #28132

        That would be a great idea. I wish I could make the Level 2 this summer at MSU but it won't happen. :no:

        We should definitely try to plan something in the near future of some kind!!! Ideas??

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        400stud on #28133

        Where do you live, Milwaukee? I know Gov's in Ohio, Drivephase is with me, Mike is at LSU….hmm, idk, that's a toughy. I'm a bit stumped… ❓

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        QUIKAZHELL on #28134

        And Quik is in New York, As well as Cstsprinter although hes 5 hours north of where im from in Ny…

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        jumpscoachmike on #28135

        Yeah that is a stumper….we have:

        Arizona
        New York
        Ohio
        Wisconsin
        Louisiana

        Hey, let's meet in the middle, somewhere that'll sure to be a great time with plenty to do….KANSAS!! 😉

        But really, we will think of something!!!

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        jumpscoachmike on #28136

        Eric-

        I like your (the) ASU fight song….i felt a little adrenaline just singin it to myself

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        400stud on #28137

        Thanks. They tought it to us yesterday at Orientation/Registration. Finally, a fight song that I'm proud to sing.

        Go Sun Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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        Danny Tutskey on #28138

        I'm going to get level 1 certified in December. Then, I'll do level 2 in that same year. Jumps, I'll be in Milwaukee a few times in Sept. and Madison also.

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        jumpscoachmike on #28139

        That's great Danny… actually I'd like to do level 2 next year as well. I'm curious where they'll have it at…

        I'll be around town in the fall….we'll have to work something out!

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        Jay Turner on #28140

        [i]Originally posted by jumpscoachmike[/i]
        Yeah that is a stumper….we have:

        Arizona
        New York
        Ohio
        Wisconsin
        Louisiana

        Hey, let's meet in the middle, somewhere that'll sure to be a great time with plenty to do….KANSAS!! 😉

        But really, we will think of something!!!

        jumps,

        I speak from experience, so TRUST me when I say this. . . .

        These four words DO NOT go together. . . . . . . . .

        PLENTY TO DO. . . . . . KANSAS

        Not even in the slightest bit. My first two years of college were in KS. It was horrible!!!!

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        jumpscoachmike on #28141

        C'mon Gov…we must be thinking of 2 different states called Kansas!!! I'm talkin about THE breadbasket of the U.S.!!! 😛

        What's not to love?!?! The farms? The rolling fields of crops? The traveling on the interstate and not seeing anything in sight for hundreds of miles? hehehe

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        Jay Turner on #28142

        The only thing that's great about what you just mentioned is the fact that all that open land is PERFECT for Dodgeball. Maybe we can somehow help build the first ever eliteTRACK.com Dodgeball arena!!

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        Derrick Brito on #28143

        now youre thinkin!!!

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        Danny Tutskey on #28144

        I believe the best way for us to sharpen our skills is to go to all the local grocery stores and start up a game. Have three teams playing. Two from elitetrack and one of pedestrians. Another great training session should include going to fast food drive up windows and hitting the worker as they open the window to give you your food! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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        jumpscoachmike on #28145

        i agree….using the grocery store as our training grounds is a great idea. It's an arena in and of itself. As always, I feel that we should not show any mercy to any pedestrians/bystanders in the store, but rather to see them as our opponent…anything goes, and I'm not just talking about rolls of toilet paper…i'm talking apples and oranges fellas!!! of course, to simulate our game better, a canteloupe or large melon of some sort would do quite nicely. :yes:

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        jumpscoachmike on #28146

        Gov-

        If WE build it they will come!

        Just think, soon we'll be starring in a major motion picture where we'll own a farm and hear a voice and cut down our corn fields to build……a Dodgeball Arena! Wait, that was Kevin Costner and he did that one already. Man i thought i had something there!!

        I do think after we complete construction of the arena and it becomes a HUGE entertainment attraction, we should look into major sponsorship for financial stability….
        ELITETRACK.com Arena

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        Jay Turner on #28147

        [i]Originally posted by drivephase1015[/i]
        400- I would just make sure when you come up with your program that you plan it all the way and stick with it. Try not to question your training because once you do it will show to everyone that you are losing confidence. To meet your needs as a 400m runner, I would do a hybrid of workouts that will give you strength, speed, but also a very strong base. I feel that strength and speed for the 400m are equally important. Build yourself so that you get stronger as the race goes on. Michael Johnson had a great blend of speed and strength. He could go out faster than anyone else could go out, but he had the strength not to fade as hard as everyone in the field would. This is what I would do for fall training work strength by doing 200’s, 300’s, 450’s, 500’s, 600’s. Work acc. dev. with 30-80m sprints and doing starts from 30-50m.

        DATE WORKOUT
        10-13 Seagrave Drills
        10-14 Seagrave Drills
        10-15 Seagrave Drills
        10-16 Seagrave Drills
        10-17 Seagrave Drills

        10-20 Seagrave Drills
        10-21 Seagrave Drills
        10-22 Seagrave Drills
        10-23 Seagrave Drills
        10-24 Seagrave Drills

        10-27 8 x 200 @ :35 â?? 2:20 rest
        10-28 2 x 500 @ +:15/400 – 15:00 walking rest – 1600m run
        10-29 2 ½ mile run
        10-30 1x4x40m hills â?? 1 x 10 stadium stair runs
        10-31 20:00 easy run on the rabbit trails

        11-03 8 x 200 @ :34 â?? 2:16 rest
        11-04 1 x 6 x 40m hills â?? 1 x 10 stadium stair dbl leg jump
        11-05 3 x 1200 @ 5:00 – walk 3:00 between runs –
        11-06 3 x Sun Devil Stadium hill runs (200m) [run up â?? walk down]
        11-07 25:00 run

        11-10 8 x 200 @ :33 – 5 man relay style – on the track
        11-11 2 x 500 @ +22:/400 – 3:00 walking rest in Myrick Park
        11-12 15:00 easy run on rabbit trails
        11-13 3 x 6 x 40m hills â?? [sprint up/walk down]
        11-14 1 x 200 @ :33 – 5:00 rest – 2 x 800 @ 2:45 – 10:00 rest

        11-17 8 x 200 @ :32 – 2:08 rest
        11-18 3 x 6 x 40m hills – [run up/jog down] in 5:00 – 3:00 rest between sets
        11-19 4 x 350 @ +:27 slower than PR pace – 1:30 rest between runs
        11-20 2 x 4 x 40m hills â?? 2 x 10 stadium stair sprints
        11-21 2 x 1200 @ 5:00 – walk 3:00 between runs – Cass Street Park

        11-24 8 x 200 @ :31 – 5 man relay style
        11-25 2 x 3 x Sun Devil Stadium hill runs (200m) [ run up â?? walk down] [15:00 set rest]
        11-26 2 x 500 @ +22:/400 – 3:00 walking rest

        12-01 8 x 200 @ 30 – 2:04 rest
        12-02 3 x 6 x 40m hills â?? [sprint up/walk down]
        12-03 2 x 350 @ :60-:62 – 200 meter walk between runs
        12-04 1 x 200 @ :31 – walk 200 – 2 x 600 @ 1:38 – 10:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :33 – walk 200
        12-05 1 x 4 x Sun Devil Stadium hills (200m) [run up â?? walk down]

        12-08 6 x 200 @ 30 â?? 2:00 recovery rest
        12-09 1 x 200 @ :33 – 5:00 rest – 2 x 600 @+:14/400 = 15:00 rest
        12-10 2 x 4 x 40m hills
        12-11 REST DAY
        12-12 3 x 6 x short hill runs – run up/jog down in 5:00 – 3:00 rest between sets

        12-15 6 x 200 @ :30 â?? 2:00 recovery
        12-16 1 x 200 @ :32 â?? 5:00 rest – 2 x 350 @ :60 – :62 – 200 meter walk between runs â?? 1 x 200 @ :33 â?? walk 200
        12-17 6 x 6 x hills [sprint up/walk down]
        12-18 20:00 easy run outside
        12-19 2 x 3 x Sun Devil Stadium hill runs (200m) [run up â?? walk down] [15:00 set rest]

        12-22 6 x 200 @ :30 â?? 2:00 recovery – 2 x 4 x 40m hills
        12-23 Seagrave Drills
        12-24 DAY OFF
        12-25 AY OFF â?? MERRY CHRISTMAS
        12-26 DAY OFF

        12-29 6 x 200 @ :30 â?? 2:00 recovery
        12-30 3 x 6 x 40m hills â?? 3 x 300 @ +9.5 â?? 5:00 recovery stand
        12-31 1 x 200 @ :32 – walk 200 – 1 x 600 @ 1:38 – 5:00 walk – 1 x 200 @ :32 – walk 200 – 15:00 run on grass
        01-01 DAY OFF
        01-02 DAY OFF

        drivephase (or anyone else for that matter). . . .

        I was just looking over this GPP setup and I got to wondering where is the true speed work? Do you not like to incorporate speed work in the pre-season? If not, why not?

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        alex on #28148

        It appears as though most of the high intensity running work is in the form of hills. Eveything else is extensive tempo. You are correct though, there is almost no pure speed work.

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        Jay Turner on #28149

        Any other thoughts?

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        Derrick Brito on #28150

        it might have been a long to short program. and i remember mike saying he didnt like that aspect of dannys training.

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        Jay Turner on #28151

        [i]Originally posted by cockysprinter[/i]
        it might have been a long to short program. and i remember mike saying he didnt like that aspect of dannys training.

        Long to short is usually incorporated when the speed aspect is there but endurance is needed, correct? And vice versa for short to long right?

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        Derrick Brito on #28152

        not necesarily. sometimes athletes have neither hahaha. i think short to long is a better overall approach to sprint training, wheras long to short may be better suited to distance running (warning: that was a random thought about long to short). because of the way long to short is set up, i dont think its suited to sprinting because a sprinters primary focus should be speed development and that may be lacking in a long to short program. if an athlete has endurance deficiencies, they should probably just do a higher volume of endurance work and tone down the speed work instead of going long to short.

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        alex on #28153

        Long to short is usually incorporated when the speed aspect is there but endurance is needed, correct? And vice versa for short to long right?

        It depends who you ask! The consensus here seems to be that if you’re deficient in speed but you have good endurance you should go long to short and vice versa. However the concensus at CF.com is that you should work to your strengths first.

        It also depends on what your definition of long to short vs. short to long is, which also varies from place to place, person to person. I agree with cockysprinter re: long to short. I think you can get more than enough endurance work done on a both ends to the middle approach.

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        Jay Turner on #28154

        [i]Originally posted by cockysprinter[/i]
        not necesarily. sometimes athletes have neither hahaha.

        This was actually going to be my next question. . . . lol

        Alex,

        as far as a both ends to the middle approach, how is this constructed?

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        Jay Turner on #28155

        Also, how can you address speed with this setup?

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        Derrick Brito on #28156

        it basically means you do this:
        accel dev -> maxV -> SE
        intensive tempo -> SE2 -> SE1
        or something to that effect. you address beginning speed and long endurance, and work towards longer speed and shorter endurance. i believe that answers both of your questions.

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        Jay Turner on #28157

        [i]Originally posted by cockysprinter[/i]
        it basically means you do this:
        accel dev -> maxV -> SE
        intensive tempo -> SE2 -> SE1
        or something to that effect. you address beginning speed and long endurance, and work towards longer speed and shorter endurance. i believe that answers both of your questions.

        Well if I were to use the above setup, what days would I incorporate the speed work? And what should I take out?

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        Jay Turner on #28158

        Comments from all are welcome.

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        Derrick Brito on #28159

        i dont think i understand your question. you wouldnt be taking out speed work or endurance or adding either. maybe youd have 2 days of endurance and 1 of speed, if your focus was on endurance.

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        Jay Turner on #28160

        [i]Originally posted by cockysprinter[/i]
        i dont think i understand your question. you wouldnt be taking out speed work or endurance or adding either. maybe youd have 2 days of endurance and 1 of speed, if your focus was on endurance.

        No no no. . . .

        When I said “the above setup”, I meant the GPP setup that drivephase has on this thread. Go take a look (if you haven’t already) and then my question will make more sense.

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        400stud on #28161

        Gov – You wouldn’t. Danny’s program is specifically formatted the way it is for a certain reason – it gets the desired results. The sprinters at LX focus on strength more than pure speed as most are naturally pretty fast to begin with. So, they focus on specific endurance as it probably makes more sense. So what you can run a 21-sec 200m….does that mean you can run a 45-sec 400m? No, and I’ve seen it happen.

        When training sprinters, mostly young sprinters, stick with ends-to-middle….

        Acc. Dev. –> MaxV –> Short Speed
        SE2 –> SE1 –> SE

        Int. Tempo before SE2 if desired.

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        Daniel Andrews on #28162

        2 things:

        1. A 400 runner needs endurance to maximize his speed.

        2. A 400 runner needs speed to maximize his endurance.

        With adequate endurance any HS boy who runs 12.0 for 100m has the ability to run a 52 sec 400. 11.0 has the ability to run 48 sec. A 10.5 has the ability to run a 46. The best way to handle speed work is to maximize your endurance and strenght first. You may also find your form becomes better with endurance, and that you relax better coming out of the first turn till you hit the front straight. Most problems 400 runners have is they hit the wall at 250 meters or save too much and can only out kick the former in the front straight.

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        fraek on #28163

        With adequate endurance any HS boy who runs 12.0 for 100m has the ability to run a 52 sec 400. 11.0 has the ability to run 48 sec. A 10.5 has the ability to run a 46.

        to me these sound off, enless your talking about 800m runners running those times in the 100. To me this sounds better:

        100m 400m
        12.0 – 54
        11.0 – 50
        10.5 – 48

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        Daniel Andrews on #28164

        Those times would indicate one or more of the following:

        1. lack of adequate endurance/leg strength
        2. too fast of a float
        3. too slow of a start
        4. lack of mental toughness

        Also, take into account the key phrases in my post are ability to (read as potential) and adequate endurance. When you can race a 400 PR, win, and then take your victory lap do you have adequate endurance.

        To your point about 800 runners, an 800 runner is a 400 runner, there is no way you can be decent 800 guy without being a decent 400 runner. Contrary to popular myth 800 is not a distance event. A runner may dominate HS 2 mile races with a respectable 54 sec 400, but that same guy will suffer against 400/800 guys in the mile races.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #28165

        [i]Originally posted by danimal9[/i]
        2 things:

        1. A 400 runner needs endurance to maximize his speed.

        2. A 400 runner needs speed to maximize his endurance.

        Very true but as I mentioned in my other post [/url] I think the endurance should be event specific endurance and not overly aerobic in nature.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Daniel Andrews on #28166

        If you do not have the ability to start with a fast 100, float for 200, and hammer home the last 100 then you are not fit enough to race to your potential. If you cannot accelerate out the 2nd turn into the front stretch you lack the endurance to run a great 400.

        You actually need both speed-endurance (muscular strength) and overall endurance (aerobic mainly the enzymatic benefits)

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #28167

        [i]Originally posted by danimal9[/i]If you cannot accelerate out the 2nd turn into the front stretch you lack the endurance to run a great 400.

        I can’t recall any elite level 400m where the athlete was able to accelerate out of the 2nd turn into the straightaway. In fact, it is quite rare to ever even see a final 100m split within 0.4s of any of the other 100m splits. 400m runners maintain (at least they try) not accelerate down the straightaway. Sometimes, the effort level goes up (kids push harder) but if they are accelerating they didn’t run the race correctly in my opinion.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Daniel Andrews on #28168

        It’s a FEELING, not actually something you do. Listening to Wariner’s post oly-race comments he said he could have ran faster because his float was good and he worked the turns real well and could feel himself accelerate when the other runs where struggling.

        When your body straightens up coming out the turn you tend to accelerate. Laws of physics take over, how much so and how far you can go with it depends on how much you relaxed in your float. I never said that you the final 100 faster than the rest, just that you are able to hammer it.

        I would have to agree if you ran your final 100 faster than the rest you ran the race wrong. I have stated that elsewhere as well. Although it is not uncommon for the 3rd and 4th 100’s to be similiar in a perfect race, just because you run slower in turns than in the straights.

        I think you and I may agree more than you think. Where we disagree it seems is about athletes not yet at that Elite level.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #28169

        Ok then. It was just a semantics based misunderstanding. Generally when I think acceleration I think of speeding up. I can assure you they are not doing that in the 400m though. I guess technically they are accelerating all the way around the turn before the straightaway but this is only because their direction is changing (acceleration = a change in either magnitude or direction of speed).

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Jay Turner on #28170

        [i]Originally posted by danimal9[/i]
        If you do not have the ability to start with a fast 100, float for 200, and hammer home the last 100 then you are not fit enough to race to your potential.

        Is this the most effective way to run the 400m? I always thought the best way to run it was to accelerate the first ~6sec., then float for about 150-175m, accelerate the 2nd curve, then hammer home the straight. Another way I was taught was accelerate for ~6sec., float 250m, then hammer home the straight. Have I been misled? Thoughts?

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        Daniel Andrews on #28171

        you are right daGov, both ways are essentially the same. You start floating in your 100’s about 60 meters. Not mislead at all.

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