Hypothetical Thought

Posted In: The Classics

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    400stud on #9275

    Let’s say you have runner X. He’s been running for a couple years, but he isn’t GREAT at one event, but is pretty solid considering he hasn’t really been trained well and obviously has potential.

    Hey, we’ll use my pr’s for this kid:

    11.87 – 23.91 – 54.24

    Okay, now here’s a question that might start some discussion (hopefully)….would it be TOO detrimental for this kid, if he wanted to concentrate on the 400 as his main event, to take a ENTIRE season (indoor and outdoor) to work on his pure speed (100/200) with the occasional 400m race, and then the NEXT year focus on his race-specific endurance…or in other words, focused on 400m training for the entire year and probably every year after that?

    Would this work? What could we expect…big things or little things?

    BTW – This is a thought that crossed my mind, but no I’m not going to do it. Unless…. 😉

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    Jay Turner on #27994

    I'm not certain, but it would seem to me that's how one would train from one Olympiad to the other. Each year you'd work on certain things that need to be improved. So in my opinion I'd say it would work.

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    marshall on #27995

    I could see it helping in a sort of speed reserve kind of way….

    a) Wouldn't focusing on the 200 be the smart thing to do since acceleration is such a big part of the 100m, while top speed & speed reserve is far more important in the 200?

    b) Is spending a whole season on these races the smart thing to do? If you lack top speed why not just train for it while training for the race our "hypothetical" runner wants to run?

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    400stud on #27996

    a) We're referring to the 400m here, so the 100m doesn't really matter. But 200 speed is important for the 400m as well….VERY important.

    b) You COULD easily train for MaxV while training for the 400m, but the thought here is that if you train for MaxV and 200m speed for a season, it could carry over to the next season when you start training specifically for the 400m again. Training simultaneously doesn't allow for as great an adaptation as training separately.

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    marshall on #27997

    a) thats what I mean to say – 400 not 200; and special endurance where I said speed reserve, sorry got discombobulated there

    b)
    But still is it necessary?
    assuming top speed is the only problem I think it could be worked out inline with training for the 400.

    So the special endurance in the 200 has a carryover to the 400? OR is the 200 just a great predictor of 400 speed based on other factors?

    The 400m confuses and bewilders me

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    400stud on #27998

    The 400m confuses a lot of people. That's what makes it one of the hardest races to train for.

    So the special endurance in the 200 has a carryover to the 400? OR is the 200 just a great predictor of 400 speed based on other factors?

    It's a little bit of both.

    One thing I think you're getting confused here is the difference between "top speed" and "speed endurance". Top speed plays very LITTLE role in the 400m b/c the athlete does not (nor should they try to) reach top speed in the race. Speed endurance plays a big role in the 400m. The 200m is all about speed endurance and with the 400m, you need that 200m speed and endurance to help carryover to the beginning of the race, then special, race-specific endurance to help with the last part of the race.

    Again I re-iterate, that YES, 200m speed can be trained inline with a 400m training program, the question here is would it be more benefecial to spend a year training for 200m speed and speed endurance before taking the next year to train for only the 400m (assuming that the 200m speed is the weakness)?

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    rice773 on #27999

    I think that top speed actually plays a relatively large role in the 400m. An athlete that is capable of 15m/s will feel much more relaxed running the first 100m of the 400 in 11.5 than an athlete capable of only 10m/s will. This is of course, assuming that both athletes have the same acceleration and speed endurance abilities.

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    marshall on #28000

    400stud – by what to train inline with the 400, I didn't mean "200 speed" I mean pure max velocity, like in flying sprints. My thinking being along the same lines as rice773, that a speed reserve factor would be very nice.

    a whole year on 200m, overall doesn't sound like a terrible idea. kind of like a short to long plan done over a couple years. I think it would be good because it would allow one to reach a new top speed, and raise the ceiling for the future. But one would need a big gain if they focused a whole year on the 200.

    what about something more conservative like focusing on the 200 specific components through preseason, a big chunk of winter and not introduce 400 specific endurance stuff until late?

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    400stud on #28001

    Marshall – the plan you proposed is just another short-to-long approach where the "short" section is just prolonged. Sounds good, though.

    I agree with what both you and Rice said with speed reserve, though.

    But, here's my biggest issue. I don't think (in fact I know) that I won't be capable of a 49 sec. 400m until my 200m speed is below 23.0. There's just no way. That's why I'm debating on spending next season on endurance with speed-maintenance to bridge the gap b/t my 200m pb and 400m pb (about 6 seconds now) or to work on speed with endurance-maintenance sessions to bring my time down more off speed and then train for endurance later. That's the real point here, for me.

    But, that raises another question — is it easier to train for speed or endurance and should you train the easier or harder component first?

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    Jay Turner on #28002

    [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
    Marshall – the plan you proposed is just another short-to-long approach where the "short" section is just prolonged. Sounds good, though.

    I agree with what both you and Rice said with speed reserve, though.

    But, here's my biggest issue. I don't think (in fact I know) that I won't be capable of a 49 sec. 400m until my 200m speed is below 23.0. There's just no way. That's why I'm debating on spending next season on endurance with speed-maintenance to bridge the gap b/t my 200m pb and 400m pb (about 6 seconds now) or to work on speed with endurance-maintenance sessions to bring my time down more off speed and then train for endurance later. That's the real point here, for me.

    But, that raises another question — is it easier to train for speed or endurance and should you train the easier or harder component first?

    400,

    It IS in fact possible to go 49.xx and not go faster than 23 flat. My freshman year of high school I was living proof of this. If you have great speed/special endurance then it can be done. My overall speed did not improve until my junior year.

    If it were me training someone, I think it would depend. If you have a 200/400 type, I'd train speed first. If it is a 400/800 type, I'd go endurance first.

    As far as easier or harder, I think this ties in to my last statement. . . it all depends on the runner.

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    400stud on #28003

    Gov – Let's put it this way. My 200m speed puts me at about a 51/52 400m, but I'm only running 54's right now. I'm a 200/400 type. I know a 400/800 kid that goes about 23.5 in the 200m and 2:03 in the 800m and ran 49.51 at region. I know it's possible. My only thing is that I don't know which aspect I personally should go after considering my speed puts me close enough to 49. 400m, but my endurance is lacking. As of right now I plan on doing lots of enduance work next year and far less speed work than this year to try to close the gap and if all works out I'll be able to open up in Feb/March at about 52/51. If I do that, then I'll have to decide if speed training or more endurance training is the way to go.

    It's so hard knowing so much….:(

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    rice773 on #28004

    400, are you running summer track? If so then i would focus on improving speed endruance for the remainder of the season and see how low you can get your 400 time. I feel confident that you will hit 51/52 once you peak your speed endurance and polish your race distribution. You have worked hard this season and what remains is just putting the icing in the cake.

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    400stud on #28005

    Rice – I am running summer track this year. Here's the schedule:

    May 22/23 – State Championships
    June 12/13 – Junior Olympics (state)
    June 19/20 – Grand Canyon State Games (least important of all 3, really)

    I was wondering what I should do to "polish" up my SE for the rest of the season?

    How about this….

    Monday – SE2
    Tuesday – Tempo
    Wednesday – Short Speed
    Thursday – Tempo
    Friday – SE1

    I think that would be good for helping my 400m time and the short speed and SE1 could assist my 200 bit, too. I think I could hit 52 this year if all falls into place.

    But, back to the original subject…..do you think I should focus on speed or endurance next season?

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    Derrick Brito on #28006

    i was actually thinking of suggesting this to you 400;). i think i read somewhere that you were frustrated with your times but only had an 11.87 100. i think working on your 100m time will help a lot in the 400. for example, your 400 time will always be limited by how fast you can run the segments. if you run a faster 100m time, the 100m segments in the 400 will require less energy percentage wise and you can use speed endurance more specific to the 400 later in the season or macrocycle to polish your 400 time off.

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    dark-knight on #28007

    400Stud:

    You need to do lots of work between 300 -600m simple as that!!!

    Give yourself a test: Try doing 8 x 200m at 70% w 60s rest between reps. If you can, then you are ready to move on to more specific work.

    Working on acceleration and top speed is useless if you have little to no fitness.

    You can't draw water from a dry well :tumble:

    PS. What are your PB for the 250m, 300m and 350m?

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