Hypertrophy

Posted In: The Classics

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        Jay Turner on #8627

        How do you train for hypertrophy and how does it benefit a sprinter?

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        QUIKAZHELL on #22532

        depends what kind of hypertrophy we are talking about, fuctional or nonfunctional. However im assuming you mean extra muscle mass. this should only be the goal when an athlete is reasonably skinny (uaully the case of an athlete with an early training age) and his or her strengths are suffering because of it.

        High volume and reps of 8-12 near failure would accomplish this.

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        delldell on #22533

        Wouldn't that emphasize sarcoplasmic hypertrophy more than myofibrillar?

        For track, just gaing size for size wouldn't seem to be the best idea. I'd think rather somewhat slower hypertrophy from slightly lower reps (4-6) would be better.

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        QUIKAZHELL on #22534

        CORRECT. but…
        i was tlaking about if an athlete needs to get more size.

        you know those little skinny guys that are freshmen in college and have never picked up a weight before. they need to work out at 8-12 reps to gain some muscle mass that will have a positive affect on their weight/strengthg ratio later on. but i agree for the athlete that has been lifting for years and developed there body they should only focus on functional hypertrophy which would be done by dong under 6 reps of olympic lifts and core exersises such as bench, squat, and shoulder press.

        https://elitetrack.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=169

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        Jay Turner on #22535

        So if an athlete needs more size then something like 3-5 sets of 8-12 reps to failure would do the trick?

        When you say they need to do this early on do you mean during the GPP of training?

        Explain what you mean by "near failure" or "to failure"?

        What is the difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar?

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        400stud on #22536

        Near failure or to failure refers to when you can only do the prescribed amount of reps. Like, you do your 12RM for 12 reps and can't do a 13th. Help?

        I'm not sure about the difference b/t the types of lifting re: sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar.

        Usually you would do hypertrophy training during GPP or SPP. Most of the time GPP is for accumulation weights like 12-15 reps and then going into SPP you do hypertrophy, then max strength during pre-comp. and maintenance during comp./peak. I think, not 100% for sure.

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        delldell on #22537

        sarcoplasmic-increase in volume of muscle fluid/non contractile
        myofibrillar-enlargement of muscle fibers

        Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy comes more from the higher rep ranges. It'd be good in GPP or the off-season as has been said. Mainly because a larger muscle has a better chance of becoming stronger. Other sports might need it just because bigger is better sometimes i.e. football, basketball. For football and basketball, in-season workouts would probably be more focused towards maintaining muscle mass, but I guess for Track it's more about peaking.

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        400stud on #22538

        So basically sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is bad, meaning myofibrillar is good, right?

        Delldell – For track it's more about increasing strength:bodyweight ratio which helps out in any aspect of all events in track and field. Hypertrophy just happens to come along, but it's usually never the goal.

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        delldell on #22539

        Yes, I think you could say that to an extent.

        Stength:Weight ratio is important in every sport, but probably the most in Track and then Football.

        For football you'd need extra size just for size's sake as long as it doesn't slow you down.

        I guess if you get bigger from sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, eventually those muscles can become denser from myofibrillar hypertropy, thus stronger. That's the main advantage for athletes generally speaking.

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        matt on #22540

        This seems like a good place to discuss a new form of hypertrophy training known as Density Training. This method was developed by Coach Ethan Reeve at Wake Forest University. You still use the basic guidelines for hypertrophy training, 60%-80% for 8-12 reps. Take your goal volume, say 8 reps, and use the same intensity that you would normally use, 80%. Now double your volume, that makes 16 reps at 80%. Instead of doing 2 sets of 8 with 80% you divide the number of total reps by 4 and get 4 sets of 4 with 80%. Note your still doing 16 reps with 80%. The reason for making the reps lower is because about the first 4 reps with that percentage can be done with perfect form, after that form deteriorates. Also you don't lose as much bar speed because fatigue does not set in until the later reps. Now as far as rest periods go you only take about 15 seconds between sets. This allows the body to recuperate some but not totally.
        Several methods are in play here, like lactic acid tolerance training and compensatory acceleration. By using this method you can actually combine power, hypertrophy, and endurance. This ended up being a lot longer than I wanted it to be.
        Hopefully I explained this well. I welcome any questions or comments.

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        QUIKAZHELL on #22541

        intersting.
        what would the outcome of this type of training be? added muscle mass or functional hypertrophy? and when would this be used during the trainign year for a track athlete?

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        delldell on #22542

        That idea sounds interesting. I've heard a similar idea of doing reps in the 3-5 range with multiple sets and little rest.

        I remember your journal mentioning this, so how have the results been? What type of exercises would you use this on? If your form wasn't really suffering, wouldn't this method only really have speed of movement going for it?

        It'd be like: 4 reps 15 s 4 reps 15s 4 reps 15s 4 reps 15s instead of
        8 reps 1-2 minutes 8 reps

        I guess that'd also work endurance then like you said? But what about TUT?

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        400stud on #22543

        That sounds tight. I like the idea. But, like Quik said, when/how would you incorporate this into a macrocycle?

      • Mike Young
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        Mike Young on #22544

        Matt and I both worked for Coach Reeve and can both attest to the effectiveness of this program. It works well and if you look back through old strength threads I've mentioned this same general setup before, although I typically would use more rest. I think it's great for neural facilitation which leads to big strength gains without the bulk.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        QUIKAZHELL on #22545

        so what time of the year should it be used and for how long and what type of routine should follow it?

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        delldell on #22546

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        I think it's great for neural facilitation which leads to big strength gains without the bulk.

        ???
        If it's for big strength gains, then why would you be doing a weight that you could do 8 reps with? I thought you'd do more triples, doubles, etc. with 85+% for that?
        I was under the impression it was more for hypertrophy and endurance without sacrificing quality form.

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        delldell on #22547

        A post I found on another board:

        This may be a little different training than many are accustomed to:
        I have had many types of athletes have great success increase their strength
        as well as strength or power endurance doing what I term "density training"
        For instance, let's say your goal for the 2 pood kettlebell clean-n-press is to do
        12 reps in a row. First, you want to use double the voume of your goal which is
        24 reps. You will only do this workout twice per week. You will start out
        doing 12 sets of 2 reps in 12 mins. Meaning you start a new set every 60 secs.
        At first your rest periods will be about 50-55 secs. After this becomes easy to
        you move to 8 sets of 3 reps in 8 mins. When this becomes easy move to 6 sets
        of 4 reps in 6 mins. When this becomes easy move to 5 sets of 5 reps in
        5 mins. You will notice by now your rest periods become shorter as your reps
        increase. After this becomes easy move to 4 sets of 6 reps in 4 mins. When this
        has become easy for you I can promise that you will be able to do the 12 reps
        goal on the clean-n-press. Using this formula I have had many, many athletes
        perform between 30-45 reps on chinups in a row. I had one wrestler do 600 chinups
        in 63 mins., he was a 3-time state champion.While I have had many other
        athletes do between 400-500 chinups in 90-120 mins. Our goal at UT Chatt.
        was to have 90+% of our wrestlers do 10 sets of 10 reps on chinups in 10 mins.
        We started with 20 sets of 5 in 20 mins. then working to sixes to 7's to 8's
        to 9's until we reached 10 sets of 10 in 10 mins. This took a period of 3
        months to reach.
        However, we then did the 100 reps each day throughout the season along with
        our rope climbs, and 3x's per week power cleans, front squats, rdls,
        standing presses, bent rows,dips, etc.

        Let's say your goal is to do 2 pood kettlebell snatches for 40+40. The total
        volume will be 80+80. Do this only twice per week. First you might do 40
        sets of 2+2 in 40 mins.
        When this becomes easy move to 26 sets of 3+3. Then move to 20 sets of
        4+4 in 20 mins. Notice that at first your workout might only be snatches.
        However, as you spend less time on the snactches you will be able to put
        more lifts into your program.Then move into 16 sets of 5+5. Then 13 sets of
        6+6 in 13 mins. After this becomes easy do 11 sets of 7+7, resting one minute
        after completion of each set. Then work on 10 sets of 8+8, resting one mins.
        after completion of each set. Once you have reached the 10's decrease the
        volume to the goal volume because now you are going for pure quality. So,
        you will do 4 sets of 10+10 with one mins. break after completion of set.
        Then move 4 sets of 11+11. Then to 3 sets of 12+12. Then to 3 sets of 13+13.
        Once you have reached 2 sets of 20+20 WITH ONE MINS. BREAK AFTER COMPLETION OF SET
        you will be very clos to the 40+40 goal. My caution to you is that you will want to do
        this only twice per week. It can be very taxing. Density training is basically
        squeezing alot of volume into a short period of time to make it more quality.

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        400stud on #22548

        Mike, knowing my program, could I incorporate it into my strength training and how?

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        Jay Turner on #22549

        matt,
        That is a very interesting concept. One that I'd also like to know how it will affect you and when to incorporate it into your program.

        400Stud,
        About the "to failure". . . .
        How would you determine 12RM? Would it be the same way you'd determine your 1RM?

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        400stud on #22550

        Basically, I believe. There are ways to calculate based off other maxes, but I think one of the most accurate would be to actually do it. Quik knows more about calculating that then I do.

        Quik :spin:

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        Jay Turner on #22551

        Quik please help me!!!!!

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        400stud on #22552

        u2u him

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        matt on #22553

        During a set of 8-12 your form usually deteriorates along with speed. So using this method takes care of both. Even if your form stays perfect your bar speed will most likely slow down. If only doing 4 reps at a time your bar speed will remain more constant.

        This method can be used as a regular hypertrophy phase. So if you are following Western periodisation this phase would be followed by Max Strength. The athletes I train use this phase right after GPP. And it works well wether your goal is more endurance or power becuase it carries over well into either.

        Usually a cycle of 6 weeks is best. what's recomended is to start with a lighter percent than normal hypertrophy training to get the body used to the workout. So start with 60% and 8 sets of 4, then the following week 65% and 7 sets of 4. Then the fun starts, do about 2 warmup sets (sets of 2 work well) to get up to the right weight then it's 6 sets of 4 with 70%. Next week 3 warmup sets and 5 sets of 4 with 75%. Then you have 4 warmup sets followed by 4 sets of 4 with 80%. The last week of the phase should be a down week to let your body recover, usually 2 warmups followed by 6 sets of four at 70%. Then it's on to Max Strength.

        The exercises that this works best with are squats and presses. You probably could do this with cleans or snatches but I think it would take to much out of you.

        I use this setup when I want to get away from the powerlifts. So I use this as more of a gpp type workout, and something different to do to keep my mind fresh. I've only done this personally for a session at a time, as I could really care less about hypertrophy of any kind.

        The article delldell posted is one of Coach Reeve's first article's about density training. It refers mainly to trying to increase reps on a given exercise, in this case kettlebell work and chins, not an increase in hypertrophy. So basically he modified that theory to fit a hypertrophy phase.

        Hopefully I answered everyone's questions. If I didn't I apologize.

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        delldell on #22554

        ahh, that makes more sense. Starting at 8×4 and going down in volume and up in intensity to 4×4. 15 seconds rest in between sets for every week?

        I'm starting a new cycle this week and was going to do 5×5 for military presses slowly into 5×3 into 3×3. Maybe I should try this instead.

        I think the first two weeks sound a little too easy though. Actually, now when I think about it, it sort of seems like I was planning on doing, but without the really short rest periods.

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        400stud on #22555

        Matt, you are very smart regarding weight training, so I gotta question for you.

        How would you periodize weights, as far as corresponding weights w/track workouts if you had the following setup…

        GPP – 4 weeks
        SPP – 12 weeks
        Pre-Comp. – 8 weeks (starts competitions but training through)
        Comp/Peak – 8 weeks (tapering last 2 weeks)

        I ask because you only have 6 weeks for this density training which is in essence replacing hypertrophy, so what would you recommend? (I'm most curious as to what to do during GPP).

        Thanks.

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        matt on #22556

        Regarding your peiodized setup I would do the following:
        2-3 weeks GPP (anatomical adaptation)
        4-7 weeks hypertrophy (depending on lifting experience and hypertrophy need)
        That leaves about 14 weeks to divide up between max strength and power phases. For most athletes you can divide that up evenly (about 7weeks for each). However if you need to focus on one or the other you can add a couple of weeks on to one phase and take from another.
        When your season begins I always just try to maintain what the athlete has gained up to that point. I believe it is to stressful on the body, and the coach, to try and peak both on the track and in the weightroom.

        Hope I answered your question, if not tell me and I'll try to help out.

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        matt on #22557

        I would advise against skipping the first 2 weeks of the cycle. they may sound easy on paper but in the weightroom it may be a different story. Plus it gives your body a chance to gear up for the coming stress.

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        400stud on #22558

        Thanks, matt. Clarified everything.

      • Mike Young
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        Mike Young on #22559

        [i]Originally posted by delldell[/i]
        [quote][i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        I think it's great for neural facilitation which leads to big strength gains without the bulk.

        ???
        If it's for big strength gains, then why would you be doing a weight that you could do 8 reps with? I thought you'd do more triples, doubles, etc. with 85+% for that?
        I was under the impression it was more for hypertrophy and endurance without sacrificing quality form. [/quote]

        I was actually referring to the "general setup" that I mentioned in my previous post. While it is similar to the one Matt mentioned it differs slightly. In this setup, I keep % relatively high (85+%), sets high (7-10), reps low (1-4), and rest moderate (1-2 minutes)…..sorry I didn't clarify.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #22560

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        Mike, knowing my program, could I incorporate it into my strength training and how?

        You'd probably need / want to incorporate it with the changes I just stated in my previous post.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        400stud on #22561

        Matt, had a question.

        When you say power phase, how does that differ from max strength? And, when you say season, are you referring to the actual beg. of the macro, or when comps. start (like pre-comp. phase)?

        Thanks.

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        matt on #22562

        Max strength differs from power phase by the intensity used. For max strength typically 90% to greater than 100% is used, while in the power phase 50%-70% is used. Also the goal of the max strength phase is to raise your 1 rep max so you want to use as much wieght as possible for normally 1-3 reps. The goal of the power phase is to increase speed, so you focus on moving the bar as fast as possible.

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        Jay Turner on #22563

        So is this how the phases work out?

        50-70% – Power
        70-80% – Hypertrophy
        80-90% – ???
        90-100% – Max Strength

        Is that how it goes? And if so, what is 80-90%?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #22564

        [i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
        So is this how the phases work out?

        50-70% – Power
        70-80% – Hypertrophy
        80-90% – ???
        90-100% – Max Strength

        Is that how it goes? And if so, what is 80-90%?

        Hypertrophy is optimally developed all the way up to 85% and max strength can be developed at 85+%. Keep in mind that there can be much crossing over between all of these parameters. For example, hypertrophy can occur above and below the stated optimal % ranges, especially for those new to weight training. At the 92+% range however, strength gains will be mostly neural in nature and hypertrophy will be minimal.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        delldell on #22565

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        [quote][i]Originally posted by delldell[/i]
        [quote][i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        I think it's great for neural facilitation which leads to big strength gains without the bulk.

        ???
        If it's for big strength gains, then why would you be doing a weight that you could do 8 reps with? I thought you'd do more triples, doubles, etc. with 85+% for that?
        I was under the impression it was more for hypertrophy and endurance without sacrificing quality form. [/quote]

        I was actually referring to the "general setup" that I mentioned in my previous post. While it is similar to the one Matt mentioned it differs slightly. In this setup, I keep % relatively high (85+%), sets high (7-10), reps low (1-4), and rest moderate (1-2 minutes)…..sorry I didn't clarify. [/quote]

        Hmm, Mike or Matt, what do you think of this quote from Pavel:

        T: But how are we supposed to build muscle with low rep training?

        Pavel: I shall sum up the energetic theory of muscle hypertrophy without using any big words: If you get a pump with heavy weights you shall grow. You need the volume to really deplete the muscle, but you need the tension to increase the amino acid uptake. Now if you lift really heavy like a powerlifter and rest for five minutes in between sets, you have the tension but donâ??t have enough fatigue. If you start using the little color coded dumbbells and do a hundred reps, you have the fatigue and the pump, but not the tension. You may build some "virtual" muscles, but nothing else.

        But if you set it up like this, if you use a heavy weight and do reps of five (not taken to failure) with only one or two minutes of rest for up to twenty sets, youâ??re going to be able to use a heavy weight and get a great pump. Every bodybuilder whoâ??s tried this approach has reported sensational gains.

        Just to give you an example, I was in the Muscle Media/EAS compound a couple of months ago. I put David Kennedy, the science editor, through a bench press workout that used this format and the high-tension techniques. Today his bench is going through the roof and his pecs are getting huge. Itâ??s a lot more enjoyable way to train, too.

        Itâ??s almost like youâ??re posing under the barbell. Ironically, bodybuilding posing is so much more effective for getting definition than any high-rep program people do. Thatâ??s another mistake comrades make. They think high reps get them cut up. Thereâ??s nothing about high reps that makes you cut up. If you feel the burn thatâ??s just exhaust fumes from your muscles, lactic acid. It doesnâ??t mean a thing. Muscle gets that "cut" look first of all when itâ??s very dense (heavier training, myofibrillar density etc.). Second of all, thereâ??s great resting tension and that comes from high tension training such as heavy iron and posing.

        So if bodybuilders would lay off their leg extensions for sets of twenty and instead go cramp your quads and pose them, theyâ??ll get a lot better gains.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #22566

        I pretty much agree with all of it. Also, if I remember correctly, Coach Reeve based his density training ideas off of some of Pavel's teachings.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        delldell on #22567

        So sets of 5 with 2 minutes rest will promote hypertrophy? I was worried that was too long a rest, but when I think about it I guess not.

        Sets of 3 with 2 minutes rest like you were talking about would be more for neural facilitation?

        And what Matt was first talking about,"Usually a cycle of 6 weeks is best. what's recomended is to start with a lighter percent than normal hypertrophy training to get the body used to the workout. So start with 60% and 8 sets of 4, then the following week 65% and 7 sets of 4. Then the fun starts, do about 2 warmup sets (sets of 2 work well) to get up to the right weight then it's 6 sets of 4 with 70%. Next week 3 warmup sets and 5 sets of 4 with 75%. Then you have 4 warmup sets followed by 4 sets of 4 with 80%. The last week of the phase should be a down week to let your body recover, usually 2 warmups followed by 6 sets of four at 70%."

        is for hypertrophy (percentage intensity), endurance (15 second breaks), and power (low rep sets to promote bar speed and avoid deterioration), correct?

        What Matt suggested was equivalent to doing 2×8, so how many exercises would one session include doing this? Obviously it'd exclude olympic lifts, but I think it'd work well for squats, presses, and auxiliary stuff.

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        matt on #22568

        Actually it's equivalent to 2×12 (70%), then 2×10 (75%), and lastly 2×8 (80%).
        I think this works best with the core lifts. I've never tried with auxiliary lifts. I think doing 1 lift per session like this is plenty of work. I know just squatting with this setup almost kills me, I don't think my body could handle any more than squatting or benching likr that in one session.

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        400stud on #22569

        Matt –

        You mentioned above how you feel that peaking in the weightrooom and on the track at the same time is too stressful on the body, but that brought up more questions.

        How is that too stressful? How would you set things up during a macro, like the one I mentioned, especially towards peak meets and things? The outline you had would take me through my Pre-Comp. phase, but what would you recommend doing during Peak competitions and the meets leading up to it?

        Just curious. Thanks, matt.

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        Jay Turner on #22570

        So then you're saying it goes like this mike?

        50%-70%- Power
        70%-85% – Hypertrophy
        85%-100% – Max. Strength

        Is that about right?

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        matt on #22571

        Basically you peak in the weightroom before or at the begining of your competition season. Then you just do maintenance work through the end of the season.

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        400stud on #22572

        Cool. Thanks, matt.

        Hey, what would you say for sets/reps and %'s for mainteanance. I don't want to drop too much.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #22573

        [i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
        So then you're saying it goes like this mike?

        50%-70%- Power
        70%-85% – Hypertrophy
        85%-100% – Max. Strength
        Is that about right?

        Looks about right to me. Lower level athletes can develop max strength at %s as low as 80%.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Jay Turner on #22574

        Thanks guys. Now what I usually do is have them peak in the weight room about 1-2 weeks before districts, then maintain through states. Does that sound like the right thing to do, or should something be changed?

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        flight05 on #22575

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        Cool. Thanks, matt.

        Hey, what would you say for sets/reps and %'s for mainteanance. I don't want to drop too much.

        how would you set up a maintenance weightroom schedule?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #22576

        [i]Originally posted by flight05[/i]
        how would you set up a maintenance weightroom schedule?

        I've found doing a couple sets (2-3) of singles and doubles at 85+% work great for maintaining strength during peaking. They provide enough stimulus to maintain all the previously developed strength and are low volume enough to easily allow adequate recovery and not to disturb the event training.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        matt on #22577

        I agree with Mike. Usually I go no higher than 95% for a couple of singles, and that's done as far away from the meet as I can make it. so if your meet is on Saturday I would do these no later than Tuesday. After that I mainly focus on power, 50-70% for doubles.

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        Jay Turner on #22578

        Someone explain what singles and doubles are?

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        matt on #22579

        Singles means sets of 1 rep, while doubles means sets of 2 reps. Sorry for not being clear.

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        400stud on #22580

        Just a side note…

        I did 3×5 on Cleans and 8×4@60% on squats today (using this density training principle), and my legs are FRIED. I'm all wobbly and everything. I'm doing OL/Squat on Mon./Thurs. and upperbody lifts on Tuesday/Friday until I start training in December. I'm doing a 6-week program that will leave 1 week b/t the end of this phase and the 1st week of training so I can rest.

        But, it feels really good. I love it. It really allowed me to get deep on my squats, which I love doing.

        Couple questions, though…

        1) How should I periodize my OL's from now through the rest of the 6 weeks? I was going to go 3×5/3×5/4×3/4×3/4×3/5×2 going up in weight. My max is 200lbs and I did 150 today. Probably a bit too heavy, but I was able to do all reps w/good form, so I think I'm alright…I think :rolleyes:

        2) How should I do my upperbody lifts, as far as sets/reps, for the 6 weeks? I'm doing a little hypertrophy right now to gain a few functional pounds and when I start training I'll be lifting 3x's a week doing the OL/Squat/Press protocol. But, I was wondering about how to set up reps/sets for the 6 weeks in a periodized manner for hypertrophy for upperbody lifts.

        Thanks for the help. This has been a very informative thread.

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        delldell on #22581

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        Just a side note…

        I did 3×5 on Cleans and 8×4@60% on squats today (using this density training principle), and my legs are FRIED. I'm all wobbly and everything. I'm doing OL/Squat on Mon./Thurs. and upperbody lifts on Tuesday/Friday until I start training in December. I'm doing a 6-week program that will leave 1 week b/t the end of this phase and the 1st week of training so I can rest.

        But, it feels really good. I love it. It really allowed me to get deep on my squats, which I love doing.

        Couple questions, though…

        1) How should I periodize my OL's from now through the rest of the 6 weeks? I was going to go 3×5/3×5/4×3/4×3/4×3/5×2 going up in weight. My max is 200lbs and I did 150 today. Probably a bit too heavy, but I was able to do all reps w/good form, so I think I'm alright…I think :rolleyes:

        2) How should I do my upperbody lifts, as far as sets/reps, for the 6 weeks? I'm doing a little hypertrophy right now to gain a few functional pounds and when I start training I'll be lifting 3x's a week doing the OL/Squat/Press protocol. But, I was wondering about how to set up reps/sets for the 6 weeks in a periodized manner for hypertrophy for upperbody lifts.

        Thanks for the help. This has been a very informative thread.

        Well for the oly's I'd say do 5 reps one more week then cut down to 5×3 for 2 weeks and then just do doubles and singles.

        On the upperbody, if you're doing hypertrophy, I'd say either do density training for 2 exercises (1 chest, 1 back) or just do like 5×5 for a core exercise and 2×6 for auxiliary. I don't think you need any real periodization if it's only 6 weeks.

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        matt on #22582

        Although the first 2 weeks of density training sound easy on paper they are no joke in the weight room. I'm glad you liked the workout.
        Normally during the density training phase I don't periodize the quick lifts a whole lot. Usually I will have athletes do either 5×3 or 8×2 at 65-75%, and focus mainly on technique and bar speed.
        As for the upper body I've tried a couple of things. One is to do 3×10/8/6+ with your 85%. So on the last set you are doing as many reps as you can. Another way is to cycle two upper body presses for 3 weeks each. On the first week start with 65%, then next week 75%, then lastly 85% for as many reps as possible. Then you switch exercises and start over at 65%, the percentages are not set in stone, more like a guideline.

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        400stud on #22583

        Here's what I planned on doing (and actually started today)

        Tuesday:
        Bench – Pyramid (8/5/3/1/1/5)
        Incline Bench – 3×10
        Dips – 2×8
        Side Raises – 3×10
        Front Raises – 3×10

        Friday:
        T-Bar Rows – 3×10
        Pulldowns (front) – 3×10
        Seated Rows – 3×10
        Chins – 2xFailure (can't do a whole lot)
        Bicep Exercise
        Tricep Exercise

        I was going to go 3×10/3×10/3×8/3×8/3×8/2×10 for the upper body lifts, excluding the bench, which I was going to maintain a pyramid-style approach to.

        My legs are so tired today, I love it. Feels so good. Now my upper body will be tired tomorrow and I can start again on Thursday with Squats and Cleans.

        But, how does that approach look. I'm only trying to do a little pre-season hypertrophy so I don't have to worry about it so much during the season, b/c I'll be doing this Density Training in-season, lifting 3x's a week and doing only 3 lifts a session, so I won't need all this hypertrophy. Make sense?

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        QUIKAZHELL on #22584

        looks good. good choice of lifts.

        how about your lower body day?

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        delldell on #22585

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        Here's what I planned on doing (and actually started today)

        Tuesday:
        Bench – Pyramid (8/5/3/1/1/5)
        Incline Bench – 3×10
        Dips – 2×8
        Side Raises – 3×10
        Front Raises – 3×10

        Friday:
        T-Bar Rows – 3×10
        Pulldowns (front) – 3×10
        Seated Rows – 3×10
        Chins – 2xFailure (can't do a whole lot)
        Bicep Exercise
        Tricep Exercise

        I was going to go 3×10/3×10/3×8/3×8/3×8/2×10 for the upper body lifts, excluding the bench, which I was going to maintain a pyramid-style approach to.

        My legs are so tired today, I love it. Feels so good. Now my upper body will be tired tomorrow and I can start again on Thursday with Squats and Cleans.

        But, how does that approach look. I'm only trying to do a little pre-season hypertrophy so I don't have to worry about it so much during the season, b/c I'll be doing this Density Training in-season, lifting 3x's a week and doing only 3 lifts a session, so I won't need all this hypertrophy. Make sense?

        This is mainly for functional hypertrophy, right?
        Here's how I would change it:

        Tuesday:
        Bench – Pyramid (8/6/4/4/6/8)
        8 reps at 78% of 1RM; 6 at 82%; 2 sets of 4 at 87.5%; 6 reps at 82% again; and finish off the last set with 8 reps at 78%.
        (Do approximate percentages…this is Poliquin's broad pyramid method)
        Standing overhead press – 3×8
        Dips – 4×6

        Friday:
        T-Bar Rows – 3×10
        Seated Rows – 3×10
        Chins – Do staggered set of 20 (as many sets as it takes to finish and drop the pulldowns)
        Bicep Exercise

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        QUIKAZHELL on #22586

        good point with the bench pyramid.

        1 rep wont do anything for hypertrophy and the percents of 1rmx dell posted looks good.

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        400stud on #22587

        I will make the changes.

        Quik – I only do Cleans and Squats on the lower body day. I'm doing density training for squats and going 3×5/3×5/3×5/4×3/4×3/5×2 for cleans (per session/week…3×5 one week…3×5 the next, etc.) I actually picked my lifts based on what you wrote you did 😉 So thanks for the ideas 😛

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        matt on #22588

        Make sure that on your lower body days you add in some type of hip extension exercise like RDL's, good mornings, or back raises. Also you can do a single leg movement too. My normal density training day consists of power clean, back squat (density style), RDL's, lunges, and finish with some ab's.

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        400stud on #22589

        I do weighted hypers. Good enough?

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        400stud on #22590

        And also, what sets/reps for the hip extension lift?

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        matt on #22591

        Normally 2×12 or 3×8 is good enough for the RDL's and alike

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        400stud on #22592

        Alright, thanks, Matt.

        I did the workout again today…3×5 Cleans, 8×4 Squats, and (because I couldn't get to a computer in time to read your response) 4×10 Hypers (w/25lb plate). My legs are absolutely gone again, but I love the pain, ya'mean? It feels good to be working out hard again and feeling the burn while knowing I'm getting stronger. Can't wait until the weekend, though, b/c my legs are fried.

        Thanks for all the help, guys.

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        400stud on #22593

        Since I'll be doing Density Training for my GPP (6 weeks) I was going to plan out my schedule now and see what you guys think.

        Monday/Thursday:
        Cleans – 3×5/3×5/4×3/4×3/4×3/5×2
        Squats – Density Style (8×4 down to 4×4 with the aformentioned %'s)

        Tuesday:
        Bench – Debating b/t Density style and Poliquin pyramids…suggestions?
        Dips – 4×6
        Military – 5×5

        Friday:
        Lat Pulldowns – 5×5
        Seated Rows – 5×5
        Chins – Staggered sets up to 20 at first and building to 25-30
        Bicep Exercise

        How's this look? The Clean sets/reps is relative to each of the 6 weeks.

        Thanks again for the help.

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        400stud on #22594

        BUMP!!!

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        matt on #22595

        Of you are going to do 4 days a week training I would split your week into 2 lower body days and 2 upper body days. I do not recomend splitting chest and back into different days.
        When any of my athletes are in a density phase I have them do something like the following:
        Day 1: Clean, Back Squat (density), RDL's, Lunges, core work

        Day 2: D.B. Swings, Bench w/row, pushups w/face pulls, arm combo, core work

        Day 3: Snatch, Power shrugs, Front squat, good mornings, core work

        Day 4: D.B. Swings, 1 arm press-n-row, overhead press w/chins, arm combo, core work

        The sets and reps vary all the time. Basically on the Oly. lifts 5-10sets 1-3 reps. Bench and RDL's 3-6 sets 3-12 reps. The rest 3-5 sets 5-12 reps.
        Hope this helps out.

        P.S. Tough for an O.U. guy to say but, Go Hawks!!!

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        400stud on #22596

        Thanks. I'll post my updated plan later.

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        400stud on #22597

        Matt – Just out of curiosity, would it be okay to just do Cleans and Back Squats 2x's a week, or is there a specific reason why you only do them one time, and then do Snatches and Front Squats (I'm assuming with different sets/reps…not density)? Also, is there a specific amount of exercises you do in a session on the upper body days? I was thinking one chest, one back, arms, core and hypers. How's that?

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        matt on #22598

        I just believe that doing back squat heavy, or any other exercise, 2 times in one week is too taxing on the CNS. If you simply change your exercises you can sitll go pretty heavy, for a short time, and not see any ill effects.
        As for the upper body days I've found that 1 quick lift, used as a warmup, then 2 presses and 2 back movements followed by a few sets for arms and ending with the core works best for me. Keep in mind this should all be done in under an hour

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        400stud on #22599

        Alright, I see. So, since I only know cleans, would doing hang cleans the 2nd day be okay? Are the DB Swings your "quick lift" in the aformentioned workout, or what is?

        Thanks, Matt…you're a blessing.

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        matt on #22600

        The answer is yes to both your questions. Normally I'll do D.B. swings or snatches on the 2nd day, but, you can use hang cleans and they will do about the same.

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        400stud on #22601

        Ok, thanks again. I'll now post my even more updated plan when I can… 😀

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        400stud on #22602

        Matt or anyone else – How does this look for my lower body days? I have very weak glutes and hammies so I'm trying to attack those the most since sprinting, OL's, and Squats attack the quads and hips and the hypers take care of the hip extension part.

        Day 1: Cleans, Back Squat (density), RDL's, Leg Curls, Hypers, Abs

        Day 3: Hang Cleans, Leg Press, Good Mornings, Lunges, Hypers, Abs

        I was also wondering, Matt, for upper body, what is your reasoning behind NOT splitting up bodyparts on these days? I'm thinking it may be better if I did split it up so I can attack the muscle more individually to address my needs (young and undeveloped…probably weaker than I should be). Could this work, or is it best to keep it the way you had attacking the entire upperbody twice a week?

        Thanks again.

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        matt on #22603

        Splitting up the upper body muscles is fine for bodybuilding but remember that you are an athlete (no bodybuilding is not a sport). So you want to incorporate not isolate. When you are running you use your entire upper body at the same time right? So why not do that in your training? You could split the upper body work but that's not my philosophy.

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        400stud on #22604

        Alright then. Fair enough. It just seems like it'd be hard to do all those lifts in under an hour. What are your rest periods on those lifts?

        To be updated later…

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        delldell on #22605

        [i]Originally posted by matt[/i]
        Of you are going to do 4 days a week training I would split your week into 2 lower body days and 2 upper body days. I do not recomend splitting chest and back into different days.
        When any of my athletes are in a density phase I have them do something like the following:
        Day 1: Clean, Back Squat (density), RDL's, Lunges, core work

        Day 2: D.B. Swings, Bench w/row, pushups w/face pulls, arm combo, core work

        Day 3: Snatch, Power shrugs, Front squat, good mornings, core work

        Day 4: D.B. Swings, 1 arm press-n-row, overhead press w/chins, arm combo, core work

        The sets and reps vary all the time. Basically on the Oly. lifts 5-10sets 1-3 reps. Bench and RDL's 3-6 sets 3-12 reps. The rest 3-5 sets 5-12 reps.
        Hope this helps out.

        P.S. Tough for an O.U. guy to say but, Go Hawks!!!

        I like this setup. What's the 1arm press & row and arm combo. Also could you check out my routine:

        M- (ME Lower)
        -Power Cleans (5×3, sometimes 2s & 1s)
        -Full back squat, Snatch-grip DL, Full front squat (3 weeks each)
        -Reverse Lunges 3×5+5/ Step-ups
        -Romanian DL/Bent knee GM 3×5
        -Glute Ham Raise/ 1 leg curls

        T- Shoulders & Triceps
        -Standing Military Press 5×5
        -Close Grip Bench – 4×8
        -Dips
        -Abs

        Th – DE Lower
        -DB Snatch 3×5+5
        -Hang Power Snatch 5×3 (Sometimes 2s/1s)
        -Step-ups / Box Squat 5×2@60%
        -Glute Ham Raise/1 Leg curls
        -Grip work

        F- Chest & Back
        -Incline Press- 8/6/4/4/6/8
        -Chins
        -DB Row â?? (3 sets in, 2 sets out)
        -Biceps 3×8-12
        -Rotator Cuffs

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        400stud on #22606

        Isn't that Westside's protocol?

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        delldell on #22607

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        Isn't that Westside's protocol?

        Sort of, but not really. It started out like Westside, but now it's a little different.

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        matt on #22608

        400stud
        Besides the D.B. swings everything else is supersetted with opposing muscle groups. So between supersets I will only rest about 15-30seconds, basically the time it takes to walk from station to station.

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        matt on #22609

        delldell
        For the 1 arm D.B. press-n-Row start by doing a D.B. bench using 1 arm at a time then do a set of D.B. row with each hand then back to the press and so on.
        The arm combo is really any combination of 1 triceps, 1 biceps, and 1 shoulder movement. My favorite is upright row/D.B. Triceps extension/ hammer curls
        As for your routine it looks pretty good. The only thing I would add is a back exercise on Tuesday to keep your upper body in balance.

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        400stud on #22610

        Alright, I finally made my weights program to be critiqued. So, please critique away…

        Monday – Cleans, Squats, RDL's, Abs

        Tuesday – DB Swings, Bench w/Rows, Standing Military w/Close-Grip T-Bar Rows, Arm Combo 1, Abs,

        Thursday – Hang Cleans, Front Squats, Good Mornings, Abs

        Friday – DB Swings, Incline Bench w/Chins, Push Ups w/Lat Pulldowns, Arm Combo 2, Abs

        Arm Combo 1 – Side Raises, Incline Curls, Bent-Over side raises

        Arm Combo 2 – Upright Rows, EZ-Bar Curls, Eye Press

        1) The reason why I only do 3 exercises on legs days is because I don't feel the need to do any isolation leg exercises (like lunges) and for time constraints. I have to make sure I get abs in.

        2) I think I should pay more attention to shoulders than triceps, so that's why I did an extra shoulder exercise in Arm Combo 1 rather than a tricep exercise. Plus, triceps get enough work with the presses anyways, right? Should I include the tricep exercise, or is it okay to do just another shoulder exercise?

        Thanks,
        -400Stud

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        delldell on #22611

        Looks fine. You should put lunges/step-ups in place of GM's.

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        400stud on #22612

        I thought you needed a hip extension exercise with every leg workout? Do lunges/step ups count?

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        delldell on #22613

        Have you ever done RDL's before? Have fun the morning after. You won't even want to do GM's.

        I think you'd be better off doing lunges or step-ups. IMO uni-lateral movements are pretty important and are more "athletic" than GM's.

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        400stud on #22614

        Alright, so just change the good mornings to lunges and everything's good to go?

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        delldell on #22615

        Yeah. It'd make more sense to pair chins/pulldowns with military press and t-bar rows with incline press.

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        matt on #22616

        Personally I would not drop the good mornings completely from your routine because it is a great exercise for developing the posterior chain. However I do think that you need to add lunges or step-ups. Rather than do one or the other I would rotate between the two. Do one for 2-3 weeks then switch to the other, you could also put them in place of the RDL's.
        As for your arms, you know your strengths and weaknesses better than I do so you'll have to judge for yourself. But, I noticed that you kept a biceps exercise in. Let me ask you this: if your tri's are getting enough work from the presses wouldn't your bi's be getting enough work from the rows and chins?

        Remember: Curls are for girls, Tri's are for guys

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        400stud on #22617

        Hey, I just wanted to look good, alright? 😀 😆

        Alright, I'll keep the tricep exercise in instead of the shoulder exercise, since you again made more sense than me 😛 .

        So, you're saying to add lunges on both lower body days for 3 weeks and then switch to step ups the other 3 days in place of the lunges and keep the good mornings?

        Delldell – I have to look at the way my gym is setup and that makes it easiest to make sure I get the machines. But, is it that big a deal where it is absolutely necessary to change those things?

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        400stud on #22618

        New Program:

        Monday – Cleans, Squats, RDL's, Lunges (Change to Step-Ups after 3 weeks), Core

        Tuesday – DB Swings, Bench w/Rows, Standing Military w/Chins, Arm Combo, Core

        Thursday – Hang Cleans, Front Squats, Good Mornings, Lunges, Core

        Friday – DB Swings, Incline Bench w/DB Rows, Push Ups w/Pulldowns, Arm Combo, Core

        Arm Combo – Upright Rows (Change to Side Raises after 3 weeks), Straight Bar Curls, Overhead Triceps Extension

        Final thoughts?

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        400stud on #22619

        New Program:

        Monday – Cleans, Squats, RDL's, Lunges (Change to Step-Ups after 3 weeks), Core

        Tuesday – DB Swings, Bench w/Rows, Standing Military w/Chins, Arm Combo 1, Core

        Thursday – Hang Cleans, Front Squats, Good Mornings, Lunges, Core

        Friday – DB Swings, Incline Bench w/DB Rows, Push Ups w/Pulldowns, Arm Combo 2, Core

        Arm Combo 1 – Upright Rows, Straight Bar Curls, Overhead Triceps Extension

        Arm Combo 2 – Bent-Over Upright Rows (hits posterior deltoid), EZ Bar Curls, Eye Press

        Final thoughts?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #22620

        Your exercise selection looks good to me but you might want to give a general layout of what your sets and reps would look like. The best exerercises in the world are only as good as the sets and reps they're used for.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        400stud on #22621

        Give me some time…

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        delldell on #22622

        And time your rest intervals. I learned it makes a huge difference. You can't honestly track your progress otherwise.

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        400stud on #22623

        What do you mean, delldell, by "timing rest intervals"? Could you please clarify?

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        delldell on #22624

        I mean timed rest intervals. Between sets and between exercises. It makes a difference.

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        400stud on #22625

        Alright, I finally got my sets/reps scheme for my program. Comments are greatly appreciated and I plan on starting Monday so the quicker the better….Thanks.

        PC – 3×5 — 3×5 — 5×3 — 5×3 — 5×3 — 6×2
        Hang Cleans – Same

        Squats – Density Style

        RDL's and Bench Press w/Rows – 8/6/4/4/6/8

        Lunges – 3×10 — 3×10 — 3×8 — 3×8 — 3×8 — 2×8

        Front Squats, Good Mornings, Military, Incline w/ Rows, Pulldowns – 3×8 — 3×8 — 8/6/6 — 8/6/6 — 3×6 — 4×5

        DB Swings – 3×10 — 3×10 — 3×8 — 3×8 — 3×8 — 2×8

        Chins – However many sets of Military, just to failure

        Pushups – 15 — 15 — 20 — 20 — 25 — 10 (sets in correspondence with Pulldowns)

        Arm combo – 3×8 — 3×8 — 4×6 — 4×6 — 2×8

        Thanks for all your help and I'm sorry for the delay.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #22626

        Are you doing all of those exercises on one day……I'm assuming you're not. If not, what is the breakdown of the workout by days?

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        400stud on #22627

        Sorry I didn't clear that up, Mike. Here's the breakdown…

        Monday – Cleans, Squats, RDL's, Lunges, Core

        Tuesday – DB Swings, Bench w/Rows, Standing Military w/Chins, Arm Combo 1, Core

        Thursday – Hang Cleans, Front Squats, Good Mornings, Lunges, Core

        Friday – DB Swings, Incline Bench w/DB Rows, Push Ups w/Pulldowns, Arm Combo 2, Core

        Arm Combo 1 – Upright Rows, Straight Bar Curls, Overhead Triceps Extension

        Arm Combo 2 – Bent-Over Upright Rows (hits posterior deltoid), EZ Bar Curls, Eye Press

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        400stud on #22628

        Bump…

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #22629

        Looks good to me.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        400stud on #22630

        Thank you, sir.

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        utfootball4 on #22631

        Basically you peak in the weightroom before or at the begining of your competition season. Then you just do maintenance work through the end of the season.

        why would you maintain the whole season

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        flight05 on #22632

        some ppl cannot balance 95+% lifts during the season while they are also doing 105+% on the track (getting pr's in events) especially during some of the grueling high school seasons…
        i know i had only one lifting session per week usually because we had 2 meets a week or one 2 day meet at times.."maintaining" or "hanging on" is al some athletes can manage, if u improve any lft than more power to u..

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        utfootball4 on #22633

        i believe what cf said during indoor look for 5-6% increase, then once u get outdoor thats when maintaining comes into play bc you have to train for speed end etc?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #22634

        i believe what cf said during indoor look for 5-6% increase, then once u get outdoor thats when maintaining comes into play bc you have to train for speed end etc?

        This may be CF's belief but I think it would somewhat depend on how much emphasis you place on the competitive season. Perhaps because the indoor circuit (regardless of level) is significantly less competitive than the outdoor circuit one could still 'train through' the indoor season to a greater extent. I know in my training setup I place a larger emphasis on the outdoor season. Beyond mere emphasis, I also think it's important to keep the training load somewhat high during the indoor season if one expects to have a great (which goes hand in hand with a long season due to post season meets) outdoor season.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        utfootball4 on #22635

        [quote author="utfootball4" date="1152494337"]
        i believe what cf said during indoor look for 5-6% increase, then once u get outdoor thats when maintaining comes into play bc you have to train for speed end etc?

        This may be CF's belief but I think it would somewhat depend on how much emphasis you place on the competitive season. Perhaps because the indoor circuit (regardless of level) is significantly less competitive than the outdoor circuit one could still 'train through' the indoor season to a greater extent. I know in my training setup I place a larger emphasis on the outdoor season. Beyond mere emphasis, I also think it's important to keep the training load somewhat high during the indoor season if one expects to have a great (which goes hand in hand with a long season due to post season meets) outdoor season.
        [/quote]

        so r u lifting pretty heavy or is it similar to lsu light loads?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #22636

        I have my guys lift pretty heavy throughout the indoor season. Actually, by most standards they are lifting heavy throughout most of the outdoor season.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #72709

        Wanted to bring this thread back from the dead. 2 of my emerging elites have put on 6+ lbs over the last 6 weeks. Both expressed concern but I assured them that it was nothing to worry about at this time of the year and that things would drop considerably once we stop doing the moderate load moderate rep range weight room work (ie- 6 x 6 or 4 x 8), dropping some of the weight circuit activity, and most importantly adding speed and / or special endurance work.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        mortac8 on #72731

        I have had trouble with some athletes’ body weight in the past (getting heavy). In fact right now I am struggling to keep weight on. I am traditionally ~195 but I’m hovering around 185-190 now. Maybe my protein oatmeal has tapeworm in it.

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #72734

        well for me, training wise, im sure it because of the aux lifts we do, db press, incline, rows etc…becasue my upper back has def got thicker, and a couple of shirts (that we small anyway) cant button up anymore because my chest has got bigger too!….still, as long as i look nothing like Harry Aikines-Aryeetey ill be fine.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #72744

        well for me, training wise, im sure it because of the aux lifts we do, db press, incline, rows etc…becasue my upper back has def got thicker, and a couple of shirts (that we small anyway) cant button up anymore because my chest has got bigger too!….still, as long as i look nothing like Harry Aikines-Aryeetey ill be fine.

        Don’t think you’ll have to worry about that. The aux lifts will drop in rep ranges and the bodybuilding volumes will drop which when combined with getting off creatine and adding longer speed work should equal pretty significant weight loss while still maintaining or improving strength levels.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        rudeboy on #76459

        Sorry I didn't clear that up, Mike. Here's the breakdown…

        Monday – Cleans, Squats, RDL's, Lunges, Core

        Tuesday – DB Swings, Bench w/Rows, Standing Military w/Chins, Arm Combo 1, Core

        Thursday – Hang Cleans, Front Squats, Good Mornings, Lunges, Core

        Friday – DB Swings, Incline Bench w/DB Rows, Push Ups w/Pulldowns, Arm Combo 2, Core

        Arm Combo 1 – Upright Rows, Straight Bar Curls, Overhead Triceps Extension

        Arm Combo 2 – Bent-Over Upright Rows (hits posterior deltoid), EZ Bar Curls, Eye Press

        you planned to force or hypertrophy?
        or a mix according to their periods?

        because if hypertrophy, reps of 3 would not be very appropriate.

        reports the rest of the series you chose

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        Avi S (tkxii) on #78411

        https://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode3&articleid=269
        i posed this on the dunkers thread too, but this is important, i really cant decide if gaining weight is a good idea or not. i looked at maurice greene’s schedule, he trains like a damn bodybuilder!
        https://www.xtremegym.com.au/forums/upload/showthread.php?t=1046

        and shawn crawford, if i spelled that right, is huge, but still pretty fast, asafa is big, and fast, but bolt is skinnier, and the UF guys have some mass for their size and run very fast. form my perspective, i view mass as being beneficial, b/c its harder to slow down a heavy mass than a slow mass, once it gets going. but i don’t want to train that way,

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        premium on #87217

        I’m trying to periodize my weights for the upcoming season and this thread has been very helpful. I have taken some of the lifts from 400studs program ( i was already doing most of them plus more though). Difference is i do 2 fullbody days year round. So it would be like this.

        Monday/Weds – LowerBody- Cleans,Squats, RDL’s –>Lunges –>Step-Ups–> RDL’s (changes every 3-6 weeks), Core
        UpperBody-Bench, Rows, chinups/pullups

        For hypertrophy i wanted to do the density training mentioned in this thread for squats and bench and the other exercises would just be 70%–>85% with 3-4×6-12

        I was thinking of doing a 3-1 set up and do mostly body weights during the unloading week would that be a good idea or should i unload regularly by dropping volume and intensity.

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        davan on #87225

        I wouldn’t switch out lunges and RDLs like that, personally. I don’t know anybody who does RDLs correctly and doesn’t get a good amount of soreness the first couple weeks doing them, at least, often longer. If you are switching them up fairly frequently, you will get this often. The same goes for lunges (especially if you are going hard), but not to the same degree. I never spent a lot of time with step-ups, so I cannot comment on those.

        I like density work and I do it regularly, but I wouldn’t do it for more than probably 1 exercise in a given workout. Other people may have had different experiences, but I couldn’t tolerate that on top of track work.

        I prefer to go by feel on unloading weeks, but I would not just do bodyweight movements as, again, you will slightly detrain those movement patterns and, when it comes to lifting, that often means significant soreness when you come back if you go much over a week (10 days tends to be pretty much the limit).

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        Josh Hurlebaus on #87226

        Davan’s pretty spot on with the density advice.
        I only do squats for density, and only twice a week. I switch between atg one day and parallel the next. I wouldn’t be able to make it through a workout if every lift was density style.

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        premium on #87229

        would it be a bad idea to do, for example,bench in a density style one day then squats in a density style the second day?

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        utfootball4 on #87230

        would it be a bad idea to do, for example,bench in a density style one day then squats in a density style the second day?

        That would be ok because you are only doing one density lift per session. I don’t like the high vol density training for sprinters but it seems to work great for some athletes.

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        premium on #87249

        for someone doing a lot of high volume tempo work would you rather them doing density squats or bench or would it not make a difference

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        davan on #87253

        You need to have your weights follow your sprinting and be well meshed into the plan. Post what your entire training weeks will be like and we might be able to offer better advice.

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        utfootball4 on #87268

        for someone doing a lot of high volume tempo work would you rather them doing density squats or bench or would it not make a difference

        Even more of a reason to stay away from the density stuff and start with 3×10, 3×8, 3×7, 4×6.

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        premium on #87275

        8×200
        1200m,2x (600, 4×200)
        3×1.5 miles
        2×600,3×600
        2.5 miles, 2x4x200
        4×1.5 mile
        3mile,1000m,3mile,1000m
        2x3x600

        theses are just random workouts from my training partners journal i dont do as much volume though because i dont have to run xc and mainly do 100-200 and he does 100-400.

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        premium on #87308

        Monday/Wednesday – Cleans,Squats, RDL’s, Core
        Bench, Rows,Chins, Arms (curls/tris)

        Sept________4 weeks – Hypertrophy (3-4×6-12 reps,60s rest,70-85%)
        Oct-Nov_____8 weeks – Max Strength(3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,85-95%)
        Dec_________4 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%)
        Jan-Feb_____6 weeks – Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps
        Feb_________2 weeks – Maintenance (conference champs @ the beginning of Mar)
        ————depending on season results the following may change/ may drop weights all-together ——–
        Mar 4 weeks – Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps OR 2 weeks Hypertrophy
        Apr ?????? OR 6 weeks Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps
        May 2 weeks – maintenance –> completely drop out weights

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        utfootball4 on #87309

        Monday/Wednesday – Cleans,Squats, RDL’s, Core
        Bench, Rows,Chins, Arms (curls/tris)

        Sept________4 weeks – Hypertrophy (3-4×6-12 reps,60s rest,70-85%)
        Oct-Nov_____8 weeks – Max Strength(3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,85-95%)
        Dec_________4 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%)
        Jan-Feb_____6 weeks – Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps
        Feb_________2 weeks – Maintenance (conference champs @ the beginning of Mar)
        ————depending on season results the following may change/ may drop weights all-together ——–
        Mar 4 weeks – Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps OR 2 weeks Hypertrophy
        Apr ?????? OR 6 weeks Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps
        May 2 weeks – maintenance –> completely drop out weights

        I would go:

        5 weeks: hypertrophy 3-4×6-12

        3-1-3: max strength 3×3-5

        4 weeks: Power/Strength Main: 4-5×3-5×20-50%/3x2x80-85%

        8 weeks: Maint – leading into conference champs.

        It takes 4-8 weeks to overcome the fatigue from the max strength work.

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        star61 on #87310

        It takes 4-8 weeks to overcome the fatigue from the max strength work.

        UT, what are you basing this on? Eight weeks is a long time.

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #87311

        I believe with this method it is important to hit singles at maximum weight towards the end of the 8 week maintanence phase…Once a week for the final 3 weeks of the peaking as retention.

        You’ll find your max strength has probably improved over the course of the phase as well…

        It’s important to go into your final most important meets as strong as you’ve ever been.

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        star61 on #87318

        Here’s an option that uses shorter blocks, switching back and forth a little more often. Longer than hree to four weeks you begin entering the adaption window, and with shorter blocks you aren’t so far away from either strength or power.

        Sept. 1 – March 1 (26 weeks)
        March 1 – March 7 (Conference)
        March 7 – May 15 (11 weeks)

        4 weeks – Hypertrophy (3-5×8-10 reps,60s rest,70-85%) visiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        4 weeks – Max Strength(5×3-5 reps,3-7min rest,85-95%)
        4 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%)
        3 weeks – Max Strength revisiting Power-Speed bi-weekly, ballistic reps
        3 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        3 weeks – Max Strength(5×3-5 reps,3-7min rest,85-95%)
        3 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        2 weeks – Maintenance (conference champs @ the beginning of Mar)

        Conference

        2 weeks – Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps
        2 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        2 weeks – Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps
        2 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        3 weeks – maintenance-> completely drop out weights

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        utfootball4 on #87319

        He’s not a weightlifter, toooo much lifting over 85%>…

        Here’s an option that uses shorter blocks, switching back and forth a little more often. Longer than hree to four weeks you begin entering the adaption window, and with shorter blocks you aren’t so far away from either strength or power.

        Sept. 1 – March 1 (26 weeks)
        March 1 – March 7 (Conference)
        March 7 – May 15 (11 weeks)

        4 weeks – Hypertrophy (3-5×8-10 reps,60s rest,70-85%) visiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        4 weeks – Max Strength(5×3-5 reps,3-7min rest,85-95%)
        4 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%)
        3 weeks – Max Strength revisiting Power-Speed bi-weekly, ballistic reps
        3 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        3 weeks – Max Strength(5×3-5 reps,3-7min rest,85-95%)
        3 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        2 weeks – Maintenance (conference champs @ the beginning of Mar)

        Conference

        2 weeks – Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps
        2 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        2 weeks – Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps
        2 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        3 weeks – maintenance-> completely drop out weights

      • Nick Newman
        Participant
        Nick Newman on #87320

        Your clearly following Bompa system…but why drop out weights for 3 weeks? Bad move…

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        davan on #87321

        You would need that much time probably if you spent that much time doing max strength work as a track athlete… damn. That’s way more than even most elite throwers.

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        Participant
        premium on #87322

        Here’s an option that uses shorter blocks, switching back and forth a little more often. Longer than hree to four weeks you begin entering the adaption window, and with shorter blocks you aren’t so far away from either strength or power.

        Sept. 1 – March 1 (26 weeks)
        March 1 – March 7 (Conference)
        March 7 – May 15 (11 weeks)

        4 weeks – Hypertrophy (3-5×8-10 reps,60s rest,70-85%) visiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        4 weeks – Max Strength(5×3-5 reps,3-7min rest,85-95%)
        4 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%)
        3 weeks – Max Strength revisiting Power-Speed bi-weekly, ballistic reps
        3 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        3 weeks – Max Strength(5×3-5 reps,3-7min rest,85-95%)
        3 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        2 weeks – Maintenance (conference champs @ the beginning of Mar)

        Conference

        2 weeks – Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps
        2 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        2 weeks – Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps
        2 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        3 weeks – maintenance-> completely drop out weights

        would you follow 3-1 scheme with that setup even though in some cases youd only have done 1week of the block that falls on the unloading week?

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        utfootball4 on #87324

        Seriously you are making a big deal about this strength training, after all strength training is a general training tool.

        [quote author="star61" date="1249712900"]Here’s an option that uses shorter blocks, switching back and forth a little more often. Longer than hree to four weeks you begin entering the adaption window, and with shorter blocks you aren’t so far away from either strength or power.

        Sept. 1 – March 1 (26 weeks)
        March 1 – March 7 (Conference)
        March 7 – May 15 (11 weeks)

        4 weeks – Hypertrophy (3-5×8-10 reps,60s rest,70-85%) visiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        4 weeks – Max Strength(5×3-5 reps,3-7min rest,85-95%)
        4 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%)
        3 weeks – Max Strength revisiting Power-Speed bi-weekly, ballistic reps
        3 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        3 weeks – Max Strength(5×3-5 reps,3-7min rest,85-95%)
        3 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        2 weeks – Maintenance (conference champs @ the beginning of Mar)

        Conference

        2 weeks – Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps
        2 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        2 weeks – Max Strength/ revisiting Power-Speed by-weekly, ballistic reps
        2 weeks – Power-Speed (3-4×2-6 reps,3-7min rest,75-85%) revisiting Max Strength (work up to heavy triple 1xwk)
        3 weeks – maintenance-> completely drop out weights

        would you follow 3-1 scheme with that setup even though in some cases youd only have done 1week of the block that falls on the unloading week?[/quote]

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        premium on #87326

        im just trying to learn as much as i can and use it so im not absentmindedly going into the weight room…of course strength work is only supplementary to track work but im trying make sure that i’m knowledgeable and organized with all of my training

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        star61 on #87328

        He’s not a weightlifter, toooo much lifting over 85%>…

        I didn’t change his intensities, just the number of weeks in a block. My point is smaller blocks.

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        star61 on #87329

        That’s something for you to decide. The closer you are to elite, the more careful you have to be, as overtraining can creep up on you and ruin a season. If you are not so close to elite, you can stretch the weeks out as long as you are careful to monitor performance on and off the track.

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