Hanging Dirty – More on transfer and trajectory

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  • Carl Valle
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    Carl Valle on #15092

    The still shots of the video are prime examples of why glutes need activation outside conventional training. I have no idea what stage of development the technique is here but the bar path is clearly away from some of the athletes in this lifting group. I am not saying that I could get an entire team to olympic lift within a few sessions but the purpose of lifting is to enhance the recruitment pat

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    bbasket on #74875

    I couldn’t agree with you more. The athlete is not activating their hips at all in the video. A quick fix would be to have the athlete perform a muscle snatch to work on proper firing sequences (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-ysrXQ_GlQ – even this video the athlete should work on keeping their heels on the ground). Then progressing to a power snatch and then a power snatch from the hang.

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    tothetop on #74876

    Carl- I read in one article you rarely use olympic lifts with your athletes. Can you please explain why? I notice you rip on Mike Boyle and Coach Dos here and there. Coach Boyle seems to be pretty intelligent with why he does things. I really like your analogy with building robots versus cats with the way we train our athletes. Can you explain how you differentiate the two please? A lot of the methods I see used in athletic training are pretty robotic movements that do not emphasis fluidity (footladder crap, agility drills that rarely involve faking out an opponent, jumping drills, etc) Weightlifting does not really train fluidity. I think people have to learn to relax a certain amount in a given activity as they become more efficient. If Kobe Bryant starts boxing, at first he wont look very fluid, but he will probably get there soon enough. Thoughts? Thank you and I enjoy your opinions.

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    davan on #74878

    Carl rarely uses olympic lifts with his athletes?

    Not sure about that–he uses them when appropriate and doesn’t use them when it is unnecessary or wouldn’t be beneficial for the specific athlete.

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    utfootball4 on #74879

    Watt a Lie

    By Carl Valle USATF II, C.S.C.S
    For Elitefts.com

    When designing specific weight training for an elite athlete, many coaches look at the demands of the event or sport. This cannot be further from the truth. Sports science has evolved but as coaches we have failed to use the new information correctly. For example the current women’s 400m world record is 47.60 by Marita Koch, set all the way back in 1985. In the 2000 Olympics Cathy Freeman won with a 49.11, showing that perhaps 20 years ago people were doing things that worked rather well. Perhaps we should learn from history and empirical evidence, not from theories of people that only do seminars for a living.

    In an ideal world, science should aid in the evolution of weight training by refining what has proven to work in the past. Many coaches are lost because they chase the new trends in sports performance. Some of these include hyper-specific exercises and functional training. A prime example of this is the dangerous combination of strength exercises with balance to improve power. Doing cleans on a balance board may get you a job with the circus but it will never prepare you for the sport. Not only does this look foolish and turns off elite athletes (so coveted by sports trainers), it is also dangerous and ineffective. The rational of this thinking is that we must replicate the speed, angle, load, and pattern of the sport to improve performance. When distributing the stress in an attempt to please all of the elements of the sport, you are no longer overloading the body, just spreading out the work into all of the demands.

    I am not a proponent of most velocity lifts or exercises. The reason for this is that most athletes overtrain and receive most of their velocity/speed work from the field or track. Adding more medicine ball rotational throws to improve bat speed is a risky idea if you look at the big picture. With all of the batting practice a baseball player does, adding more speed work can overtrain his central nervous systems and decrease performance. Instead of dropping the exercise to give their sluggers a break, some trainers choose to tweak the exercise by doing it on one leg or with a balance device. Bad idea.

    Then we have the Olympic lifts. While I do use them with some athletes I can only say that only 5% of my athletes do them regularly to improve their performance. The fastest athlete I have worked with (2000 Olympic Gold Medallists Kenny Brokenburr) never cleaned or snatched with me. I felt that his squat technique wasn’t up to par and there was no reason to teach a movement that required a far more technical skill level. If he was 10 years younger and had a natural feel for the lifts I might have integrated the movements in his program. Fortunately with so many stimuli such as the sprinting work, plyometrics, medicine ball throws, and structural lifts, I didn’t worry about one movement in one component of his training. The expert strength coaches that followed my athletes’ training considered my elimination of the Olympic lifts moronic. From their ivory tower perspective I was incompetent to teach them the skills, or I didn’t have the research that shows that the highest wattage comes from the snatch! They failed to realize that the hip of an elite sprinter generates more watts while at top speed then by any Olympic lift or variation. Heavy squats were just too simple for them and didn’t satisfy their need for journal research to confirm the obvious. They failed to realize that the sport prepares the specific qualities and lifting should expand and improve the general strength of the organism. The goal of strength training is to improving strength, and should not try to replicate the sport. At the 2001 S.W.I.S conference in Toronto, Charlie Francis explained the concept of how general training improves performance. Unfortunately, it was rejected by many of the members of the audience because it didn’t have the glamour or sex appeal. So instead of looking at the demands of the sport, let the lifts assist the general needs and leave the replication to the circus clowns.

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    davan on #74880

    Carl can obviously speak for himself, but I think he varies it a lot based upon the sport and age of the athlete. Certain sports may not be conducive to an approach the utilizes olyympic lifts and older athletes without much experience may not have time to learn them (or they may not be an effective use of time), but I think it isn’t a cut and dry issue.

    Carl Valle
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    Carl Valle on #74881

    I couldn’t agree with you more. The athlete is not activating their hips at all in the video. A quick fix would be to have the athlete perform a muscle snatch to work on proper firing sequences (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-ysrXQ_GlQ – even this video the athlete should work on keeping their heels on the ground). Then progressing to a power snatch and then a power snatch from the hang.

    Thanks for posting a response. It would be nice for you to share your approach and the context of how you do things in regards to the olympic lifts.

    Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #74882

    Carl- I read in one article you rarely use olympic lifts with your athletes. Can you please explain why? I notice you rip on Mike Boyle and Coach Dos here and there. Coach Boyle seems to be pretty intelligent with why he does things. I really like your analogy with building robots versus cats with the way we train our athletes. Can you explain how you differentiate the two please? A lot of the methods I see used in athletic training are pretty robotic movements that do not emphasis fluidity (footladder crap, agility drills that rarely involve faking out an opponent, jumping drills, etc) Weightlifting does not really train fluidity. I think people have to learn to relax a certain amount in a given activity as they become more efficient. If Kobe Bryant starts boxing, at first he wont look very fluid, but he will probably get there soon enough. Thoughts? Thank you and I enjoy your opinions.

    What percentage of athletes should do olympic lifts? Can you see rowing, tennis, and swimming doing any of the olympic lifts? Most of my track athletes do Olympic lifts and most of my football athletes do. I work with those that do Golf….no olympic lifts. Endurance? No. Cycling? No. How many pro baseball players olympic lift? The lifts are great but the article is my thought process on sports training. What I do for Track in general is a different deal. The debate that if you don’t do a lift you don’t know how to coach it or that olympic lifters were tested magically in Mexico City is just nonsense.It was my first article and I hope I didn’t label myself the no olympic lift guy.

    As for the robots vs cats I am more of a coach that tries to enhance natural motion vs trying to get athletes to get things to move from point a to point b.

    Weight lifting (olympic) can be elastic and smooth. Even a pull-up can done with a rhythmic motion that flows neatly.

    Kobe will most likely get more fluid with good coaching at new activities but the best athletes will get there faster and farther. They always make it look easier.

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    tothetop on #74889

    Carl
    Thanks for replying. I agree about your comments on olympic lifting and even pull ups being smooth flowing or not. Can you please explain what olympic lifts you use for your track athletes and why? ?The Thinker aka James Smith says he will use clean variations sometimes but never does any of the overhead lifts (jerk or snatch). I see his point. Something I realized, no one is ever made from olympic lifts. There are other and often times more specific ways to accomplish power improvement. But improving maximal strength can make or break someone’s athleticism, if they are lacking.

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