First Step Quickness?

Posted In: Blog Discussion

  • Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #17964

    Should one do horizontal broad jumps to get horizontal speed on the soccer field. Should we do glute and hamstring training to get more extension? What about speed sumo deadlifts? With some of the research on plyometrics and early acceleration, I am intrigued by the results and the fact it’s done in-season. Dr. Nassis posted a short summary of improving first step speed and it was clear that vert

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    star61 on #112223

    Should one do horizontal broad jumps to get horizontal speed on the soccer field. Should we do glute and hamstring training to get more extension? What about speed sumo deadlifts? With some of the research on plyometrics and early acceleration, I am intrigued by the results and the fact it’s done in-season. Dr. Nassis posted a short summary of improving first step speed and it was clear that vert

    Continue reading…

    Two responses….

    First, I think the measurement of MaxV was flawed. These are athletic 19 year olds and there is an assumption that Max V is reached by 40m. This may be too short a distance to measure in faster individuals who may not be reaching Max V until at least 45m or greater. Increased times as measured in this study would actually be showing improvements in acceleration, i.e. reaching higher speeds sooner and entering the speed gate at a faster speed. This does not actually mean that there ultimate top speed, MaxV, actually improved.

    Two, it is nothing new that resistance and plyos improve acceleration, especially the early phases. It WOULD be something if one or the other were actually shown to improve MaxV. I know of only one study that showed an improvement in MaxV, and this was a result of bounding.

    Also, most studies I’ve read show more of a correlation between vertical jump and acceleration and correlations between horizontal jump and MaxV.

    Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #112224

    Two things to consider….

    Testing max speed requires a specific run up distance and run up posture. That dictates what performance measures would look like. It’s far easier for someone to reach top speed when their top speed isn’t very fast (i.e. soccer players), not that they can accelerate much better, but research supported FIRST STEP SPEED, hence the name of the blog post.

    My point was that a mixed environment was better and for some reason they were doing it IN SEASON and got better…something worth noting.

    Regards to the correlation testing, please share the citation on speed and power with track athletes. The Komi studies have some good information but could you share the details of the “vertical jump”? Was it Squat Jump or CMJ?

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    star61 on #112240

    Two things to consider….

    Testing max speed requires a specific run up distance and run up posture. That dictates what performance measures would look like. It’s far easier for someone to reach top speed when their top speed isn’t very fast (i.e. soccer players), not that they can accelerate much better, but research supported FIRST STEP SPEED, hence the name of the blog post.

    I agree, but semantics are important and on this board speed usually refers to MaxV. I think the 5m fly at the end of the 40m was somehow to suggest that even MaxV was improved. I just wanted to clarify that an improvement in accel will have an athlete entering this gate at a higher velocity and give the appearance of a higher MaxV when in fact there may have been no improvement. Said another way, I think if there had been a gate between 55m-60m and 60m-65m, you would have seen very little, if any, improvement in MaxV

    My point was that a mixed environment was better and for some reason they were doing it IN SEASON and got better…something worth noting.

    I believe I have seen similar results, both in season and out. I will look for those references.

    Regards to the correlation testing, please share the citation on speed and power with track athletes. The Komi studies have some good information but could you share the details of the “vertical jump”? Was it Squat Jump or CMJ?

    There are a ton of studies that include short sprint times with squat jump, CMJ, depth jump etc, although I don’t recall that any were with track athletes. I will collect several similar studies looking out for track athletes and post the links tomorrow or the next…busy night and tomorrow.

    Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #112247

    Please share the studies in their entirety, not links to the abstracts as it’s important to see the details and talk about that different information in the thread on Maximal speed if you can so this blog posts heads to the right direction.

    What we are talking about his first step quickness and team sports. I find it interesting that vertical type forces have helped with early acceleration and directed this discussion to that point.

    The first step (no pun intended) is to see if we agree on the study regarding early acceleration and the methods used, and see why it worked.

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    star61 on #112250

    Please share the studies in their entirety, not links to the abstracts as it’s important to see the details and talk about that different information in the thread on Maximal speed if you can so this blog posts heads to the right direction.

    What we are talking about his first step quickness and team sports. I find it interesting that vertical type forces have helped with early acceleration and directed this discussion to that point.

    The first step (no pun intended) is to see if we agree on the study regarding early acceleration and the methods used, and see why it worked.

    Carl,

    I don’t mind sharing some links, but if you want the full text studies, you’ll have to the leg work yourself. I find it ironic that someone who refuses to share much in the way of anything demands full text studies, perhaps implying that anything else is insuffucient to make a point. I’ll link full text where available and abstracts, which are great summaries of the pertinent findings, where I must.

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    star61 on #112251

    Carl,

    In my first post commenting on your blog about plyometrics and early acceleration, I said..

    First, I think the measurement of MaxV was flawed. These are athletic 19 year olds and there is an assumption that Max V is reached by 40m. This may be too short a distance to measure in faster individuals who may not be reaching Max V until at least 45m or greater. Increased times as measured in this study would actually be showing improvements in acceleration, i.e. reaching higher speeds sooner and entering the speed gate at a faster speed. This does not actually mean that there ultimate top speed, MaxV, actually improved.

    Two, it is nothing new that resistance and plyos improve acceleration, especially the early phases. It WOULD be something if one or the other were actually shown to improve MaxV. I know of only one study that showed an improvement in MaxV, and this was a result of bounding.

    Also, most studies I’ve read show more of a correlation between vertical jump and acceleration and correlations between horizontal jump and MaxV.

    It took about 5 minutes to collect the links below, which are only a fraction of the studies that link all sorts of training modalities which include not only plyometrics and jump training, but resistance training, sled pulling, hill sprints etc. and their benefical effects on jump (horizontal or vertical) and short sprint performance, whether your talking about the first 5m or the first 30m. Its old news.

    My first point and last points in my original post was simply to point out that while there are a plethora of studies showing the performance gains that can be achieved in the first 30m, there are very few, if any, studies that definitively link any of these training means actually improve MaxV, with the exception of a study or two linking bounding to MaxV. It really doesn’t advance the forum’s knowledge base to discuss the training that improves early acceleration, but it would be really something to discuss the training that improves MaxV. Could you post links to any scientific information that shows any correlations between any training means, other than sprinting, and MaxV?

    Thanks…

    Plyometrics and First Step (0-10m)

    https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/abstract/1995/08000/influence_of_high_resistance_and_high_velocity.15.aspx
    https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Abstract/2010/08000/Adaptations_in_Athletic_Performance_after.18.aspx
    https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Abstract/2010/09000/Changes_in_the_Eccentric_Phase_Contribute_to.16.aspx
    https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Abstract/2007/10000/Effects_of_Plyometric_and_Weight_Training_on.17.aspx
    https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2011/03001/Quantifying_Training_Load_for_Free_Sprint,.20.aspx
    https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2008/05000/Relationship_Between_Sprint_Times_and_the.7.aspx
    https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2000/08000/Effects_of_a_Plyometrics_Intervention_Program_on.9.aspx
    https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2010/04000/Short_Term_Effects_of_Complex_and_Contrast.7.aspx
    https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2008/11000/Squat_Jump_Training_at_Maximal_Power_Loads_vs_.4.aspx
    https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2011/09000/The_Effect_of_40_m_Repeated_Sprint_Training_on.3.aspx
    https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2010/12000/The_Relationship_Between_Kinematic_Determinants_of.2.aspx
    https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2008/05000/Short_Term_Effects_of_Strength_and_Plyometric.18.aspx

    Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #112256

    I have shared my opinion and experience in about 180 fully typed pages of blog entry, full length articles, and just recently a presentation. I have shared video demonstrations, great blog links, and great resources. If you are reading the full studies and seeing the full story, not abstracts, you should have them ready to share but apparently you don’t and that’s fine.

    Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #112257

    My first point and last points in my original post was simply to point out that while there are a plethora of studies showing the performance gains that can be achieved in the first 30m, there are very few, if any, studies that definitively link any of these training means actually improve MaxV, with the exception of a study or two linking bounding to MaxV. It really doesn’t advance the forum’s knowledge base to discuss the training that improves early acceleration, but it would be really something to discuss the training that improves MaxV. Could you post links to any scientific information that shows any correlations between any training means, other than sprinting, and MaxV?

    Agreed. Not much is out there. So what is this community to do knowing the constraints of maximal speed besides sprinting? I believe some plyos help, what about specific glute exercises Star61?

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    JeremyRichmond on #112268

    First step quickness…almost ideally satisfied by the Olympic lift. Attached is the J-motion squat which is the power snatch leg movement without the limitation of upper body (arm/wrist) strength. For more specificity it should be performed with a single leg. For even more specificity it should be performed with a bar placed where the head ends up to encourage a leaning back(more biomechanically specific). For the most specificity it could end up as a jump squat.

    Apologies it won’t attach. Please use google; J-motion squat

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    oshikake@ymail.com on #112269

    .

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    star61 on #112270

    I have shared my opinion and experience in about 180 fully typed pages of blog entry, full length articles, and just recently a presentation. I have shared video demonstrations, great blog links, and great resources. If you are reading the full studies and seeing the full story, not abstracts, you should have them ready to share but apparently you don’t and that’s fine.

    I don’t keep files of full text articles. You posted a link to a blog, I posted links to scientific abstracts. If anyone wants the full text article of an abstact, they can get it.

    You spend so much time with this petty one upmanship without ever actually addressing the issues. My original points still stand. A lot of means improve first step quickness and there are tons of studies to back it up. Secondly, any insinuation that the training done in the article discussed in the blog you linked to improved speed, i.e. MaxV, is suspect because of the method of measuring MaxV…a 10m stretch that may still be inside the acceleration phase of at least some of the athletes. If you disagree with either of these points, let’s herefrom you. Otherwise…

    Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #112272

    Star61,

    I have posted URLS and uploaded entire studies (that were public for sharing). Apparently you read the entire study, then delete it. Interesting.You constantly complain that I don’t provide enough information for you, like I breached some contract for your subscription. My posts on training have been longer as of late with more depth, noted by the positive feedback by members.Now you are complaining that I am not addressing issues? I brought up a great article showing improvements in early acceleration! Early acceleration was documented to have higher horizontal forces demands and a vertical modality was used to improve that. Note no comment.

    Now the research study does go over improvements in max speed that you don’t agree with and that is fine. Hence why I said first step quickness as a title instead of “Using plyometrics for max speed…..with soccer!”.

    Very little research is available to show a quality that improves max speed besides max speed. Clearly the athletes that are down in the islands are achieving maximum speeds of 12.2 meters per second without the use of MAX STRENGTH as I have stated before. While the elimination of the extreme range of a modality is not a research study, that is a point of managing a program to develop the sprinter.

    I have asked YOU a clear question. Does developing the posterior chain in any way (sleds, deadlifts, or glute exercises) help max speed?

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    JeremyRichmond on #112273

    First step quickness = hip flexor power.

    Seriously there is no better tool IMO than using a clipless pedal system when road cycling/or with the use of an trainer/exercise bike. Better on roads.

    A great conditioner for soccer/stamina. Will be going back to this when I start playing footie again.

    You have to overload the hip flexors if you want a blingly fast first-sixth step & something to increase arm speed. From an equal standing start on the field, you should have the advantage to gain that all important yard quicker than the guy who doesn’t concentrate on this conditioning or have the necessary power in the hip flexors.

    Not really to be related to 100m sprinting, just getting the first few steps really explosive in a team sport & covering that bit of ground faster.

    Yep that’s not a bad training solution. I did use a bike before for power generation and to aid hip flexor power. I feel it was reasonable but limited. A single leg J-motion jump squat whereby the non-pushing leg is raised up during the movement achieves hip flexor power (with a little added weight) and promotes quicker extension.
    A portion of force generated against the ground (during the exercise and also during a sprint) must go to propelling the free leg forward. This serves two purposes; getting the free leg to a forward position as quickly as possible to increase speed further, getting the free leg forward with enough time to perform a minor slamming down motion to generate rapid force. The skilled sprinter (athlete) manages these aspects well.

    Out of curiosity, how much peak power can you generate on a cycle ergometer? …question applies to all forum members

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    star61 on #112281

    Star61,

    I have posted URLS and uploaded entire studies (that were public for sharing). Apparently you read the entire study, then delete it. Interesting.You constantly complain that I don’t provide enough information for you, like I breached some contract for your subscription. My posts on training have been longer as of late with more depth, noted by the positive feedback by members.Now you are complaining that I am not addressing issues? I brought up a great article showing improvements in early acceleration! Early acceleration was documented to have higher horizontal forces demands and a vertical modality was used to improve that. Note no comment.

    Now the research study does go over improvements in max speed that you don’t agree with and that is fine. Hence why I said first step quickness as a title instead of “Using plyometrics for max speed…..with soccer!”.

    Very little research is available to show a quality that improves max speed besides max speed. Clearly the athletes that are down in the islands are achieving maximum speeds of 12.2 meters per second without the use of MAX STRENGTH as I have stated before. While the elimination of the extreme range of a modality is not a research study, that is a point of managing a program to develop the sprinter.

    I have asked YOU a clear question. Does developing the posterior chain in any way (sleds, deadlifts, or glute exercises) help max speed?

    I have stated clearly in many threads, including this one, that I am not aware of any studies showing an improvement in MaxV with any training means besides sprinting, and possibly bounding. Again, my original two points stand, uncontradicted. And first step quickness is first step quickness, no matter what uniform the athlete wears on game day.

    Now, let me ask you a specific question…do you think the study you directed the forum to makes a valid argument about improvements in MaxV?

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