Creatine and its effects

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    star61 on #97281

    Davan cited these references to support the benefits of the supplements he chooses. NONE of the references cited support any performance enhancement effects, and in fact indicate there are none in a couple.

    [quote]Beta-alanine:
    Derave W, Ozdemir MS, Harris R, Pottier A, Reyngoudt H, Koppo K, Wise JA, Achten E. (August 9 2007). “Beta-alanine supplementation augments muscle carnosine content and attenuates fatigue during repeated isokinetic contraction bouts in trained sprinters”. J Appl Physiol 103: 1736

    [/quote]From the study…”the increase in muscle carnosine did not improve isometric endurance or 400-m race time.” This study indicates there is no benefit to sprinters in taking beta-alanine. I actually think beta-alanine has potential, but this study does not support that contention.

    Yohimbine:
    Ostojic SM. Yohimbine: the effects on body composition and exercise
    performance in soccer players. Res Sports Med. 2006 Oct-Dec;14(4):289-99.

    From the study…”There were no changes in exercise performance indicators (bench and leg press, vertical jump, dribble and power test results, shuttle run) within or between. trials (p > 0.05). No subject reported any side effects from yohimbine. The results of the current study indicate that supplementation with yohimbine combined with resistance training does not significantly alter the body mass, muscle mass, or performance indicators in professional soccer players.”

    Tyrosine:
    Magill RA, Waters WF, Bray GA, Volaufova J, Smith SR, Lieberman HR, McNevin N,
    Ryan DH. Effects of tyrosine, phentermine, caffeine D-amphetamine, and placebo on
    cognitive and motor performance deficits during sleep deprivation. Nutr Neurosci.
    2003 Aug;6(4):237-46.

    Doesn’t address any athletic performance measures, period. Has absolutely nothing to do with sprint performance. This study does nothing to back up your claim that Tyrosine is a performance enhancer.

    Belza A, Toubro S, Astrup A. The effect of caffeine, green tea and tyrosine on
    thermogenesis and energy intake. Eur J Clin Nutr. 2009 Jan;63(1):57-64. Epub 2007
    Sep 19. PubMed PMID: 17882140.

    From the study…”The thermogenic responses to GTE and tyrosine were not significantly different from placebo.”[/b][/i][/i] No differences from placebo, meaning no effect…and this was simply about metabolism…doesn’t even begin to address athletic enhancement of any kind, much less sprint performance.

    Davan, your already limited credibility suffers greatly with a post like this. You blast me for not reading the studies I post (which I DO and which DO address the issue being discussed and DO show statistically relevent enhancement in not only athletic performance in general, but sprint performance specifically, and then you post this drivel. Not one study you cite supports any athletic enhancement benefits at all from any of these substances, and two actually indicate that there are NO benefits derived from the substances studied. Did YOU read the studies YOU posted in support of YOUR opinions, or did you just not undestand them?

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    davan on #97284

    This study indicates there is no benefit to sprinters in taking beta-alanine. I actually think beta-alanine has potential, but this study does not support that contention.

    I specifically said that this is to be used for RSA, which will assist in training and allow for a higher training load/better quality of training load. CF actually discussed this specific issue on his forum. Good try.

    Yohimbine:
    Ostojic SM. Yohimbine: the effects on body composition and exercise
    performance in soccer players. Res Sports Med. 2006 Oct-Dec;14(4):289-99.

    From the study…”There were no changes in exercise performance indicators (bench and leg press, vertical jump, dribble and power test results, shuttle run) within or between. trials (p > 0.05). No subject reported any side effects from yohimbine. The results of the current study indicate that supplementation with yohimbine combined with resistance training does not significantly alter the body mass, muscle mass, or performance indicators in professional soccer players.”[/quote]

    It enhanced fat loss, which is why I advocate its use, not for the other factors–nice strawman though. I did not comment on it as an anabolic and it was used in a short-term project without a large enough sample size to see whether or not the strength:weight improvements would carry over to other events.

    Tyrosine:
    Magill RA, Waters WF, Bray GA, Volaufova J, Smith SR, Lieberman HR, McNevin N,
    Ryan DH. Effects of tyrosine, phentermine, caffeine D-amphetamine, and placebo on
    cognitive and motor performance deficits during sleep deprivation. Nutr Neurosci.
    2003 Aug;6(4):237-46. Doesn’t address any athletic performance measures, period. Has absolutely nothing to do with sprint performance. This study does nothing to back up your claim that Tyrosine is a performance enhancer.

    I said it is to be used as a stimulant for stimulant-like effects, the evidence for which is well founded. Not a miracle substance by any means and it must be combined with caffeine IME for optimal effects.

    Davan, your already limited credibility suffers greatly with a post like this. You blast me for not reading the studies I post (which I DO and which DO address the issue being discussed and DO show statistically relevent enhancement in not only athletic performance in general, but sprint performance specifically, and then you post this drivel. Not one study you cite supports any athletic enhancement benefits at all from any of these substances, and two actually indicate that there are NO benefits derived from the substances studied. Did YOU read the studies YOU posted in support of YOUR opinions, or did you just not undestand them?

    Please go back and read what my posts were. My argument was not that creatine doesn’t work in studies, but that it doesn’t pan out for sprinters and most T&F athletes, which this site focuses around. The studies show that the substances do exactly what I said they do and why they can enhance performance. Note as well I did not say that there were studies on trained 100m sprinters, for which there are none on creatine as well.

    And yes, I read the studies and understand them just fine. That is in fact why I cited BA for enhancing RSA or repeated sprint ability (going to be important for training), yohimbine for fatloss and stimulatory effects, and tyrosoine for stimulatory effects. Good try, yet again.

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    Matt Norquist on #97285

    The problems with all of these studies are immense:

    1. Sample Sizes – To do right, it is really necessary to have a minimum group of 25-50 in both study and control groups.
    2. Study Design – To do right – both groups need nearly identical training protocols.
    3. Both groups need to have comparable (and competitive) performance numbers.

    It is difficult to get such a group – you’d almost have to have it be off-season collegiate athletes.

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    Participant
    star61 on #97287

    Please go back and read what my posts were. My argument was not that creatine doesn’t work in studies, but that it doesn’t pan out for sprinters and most T&F athletes, which this site focuses around. The studies show that the substances do exactly what I said they do and why they can enhance performance. Note as well I did not say that there were studies on trained 100m sprinters, for which there are none on creatine as well.

    Again, you redefine the argument when you can’t prove your point. You need to go back and read the entire thread and listen to some of your own advice. You always fall back on “this is a sprint forum”, unless it doesn’t help your pathetic arguments. The original post was about sprint performance. NONE of the studies you posted on the substances you advocate confirm any benefit to a sprinter, because if it doesn’t result in them sprinting faster, it is of no direct use. As far as creatine, there are studies that show that short sprint performance IS enhanced by creatine supplementation. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if you improve your perforance in the first 30-40m you will most likely improve your performance over 100m. The substances you advocate evidently don’t have a single study indicating that they improve sprint performance at any distance. And how do you know that creatine hasn’t panned out for most sprinters and T&F athletes? Do you have data on these statistics, or are you expecting us to just take that as a fact because that’s your opinion?

    And yes, I read the studies and understand them just fine. That is in fact why I cited BA for enhancing RSA or repeated sprint ability (going to be important for training), yohimbine for fatloss and stimulatory effects, and tyrosoine for stimulatory effects. Good try, yet again.

    Do they make you perform better in a sprint? NO. That IS the topic of this thread. Has creatine been shown in many studies to improve sprint performance more so than your substances. YES, definitively. Again, you are so stubborn and intellectually dishonest that nothing you post has anything positive to add to the discussion at hand. As usual, you will strawman a thread to death rather than to admit you might be mistaken. I can post dozens of studies, many well run, double-blind with placebo, studies that indicate that creatine improves many performance measures, including sprints and vertical jump, with minimal to no side effects. You can’t post one that demonstrates these kind of results on ANY of your supplements. As usual. Don’t believe the science, just trust Daven’s opinion. Again, you are a joke.

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    utfootball4 on #97288

    You guys have too much time on your hands.

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    indigobreath on #97489

    So are you taking creatine also during the competition season?

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    bayo on #98006

    Just to repeat indigobreath:
    Do any of you people only use creatine in GPP-SPP and stop for the Competition phase or do you take creatine throughout?

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    utfootball4 on #98008

    Just to repeat indigobreath:
    Do any of you people only use creatine in GPP-SPP and stop for the Competition phase or do you take creatine throughout?

    Based on Carl comments, you shouldn’t take it inseason…

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    bayo on #98012

    I can understand Carls statement in relation to not been beneficial on competition day, but what about the surrounding training/recovery?
    With the increase in intensity in the training surrounding competition i would of though that Creatine may be of some use.
    Also i thought that it maybe of some use on race day to 400m runners to help reduce lactic acid accumulation?

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    Irish100m on #111301

    I’ve been advised to take creatine during winter/off season as it basially helkps you go harder for longer on both the track and in the gym, is this true?

    How bad is the water retention?

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    comando-joe on #111302

    I’ve been advised to take creatine during winter/off season as it basially helkps you go harder for longer on both the track and in the gym, is this true?

    How bad is the water retention?

    It’s really cheap so just give it a try. I get nothing from it and i used to take 20g a day. I have no endurance at all and i would notice if anything went up, eg. i do 4 sprints a session and total about 6-9 reps in the gym (2-3 over 80%) for an exercise.

    Maybe theres a placebo effect for some.

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