Butterfly Effect: Hip Thrusts and other LVT exercises in Maximal Sprinting

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  • Carl Valle
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    Carl Valle on #16987

    The simple question is “What impact will hip thrusts and other exercises coined by Bret Contreras” have on elite sprinting? My answer is I am not sure, since every few years a new or old idea comes up claiming it will be the next big thing and always seems to loose ground when the track season starts. Why? Reality. The reality of the exercise list is that no evidence of transfer is available. So

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    ct on #101378

    OK heres what my opinion is take it for what its worth. Yes there is a difference between something that theoretically could help and something that does help. But no one will ever know if it actually does help if no one tries it.

    But saying it all boils down to genetics. Come on that’s the oldest excuse people been using that one since like middle school.

    Carl Valle
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    Carl Valle on #101379

    Tyler,

    Good points. Maximal performance is largely dictated by genetics. Coaching does have a major impact but we all agree that good programs help, but how many programs you see that are not well designed and or executed are getting results because of talent?

    We do have to try things but what we try and how we do it can only be done at a limit. Do you believe in the hip thrusts? If so this fall starts the GPP and we have time to include it.

    I would do this if I am a coach in track. Video your athletes doing it with sufficient loads each week and share the excel workouts a journal if one has the time. We should share what we are all doing more as it helps stimulate discussion and learning.

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    ct on #101381

    That’s true but no matter someones genetics, I believe anybody can get pretty decent but it may take a different program or at least some variations than what makes say a 10.5 100 to a 10 flat 100.

    I looked up the excersises and I don’t necessarily believe or not believe in Contreras but they are worth a try I guess. I am going to start doing them no matter how stupid they look for a while and see what happens.

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    Josh Hurlebaus on #101383

    I added in hip thrusts as an auxiliary exercise for my GPP this year and I am so far pleased with the early results. They induced a tad more glute soreness than I thought they would, which is fine for GPP in my opinion and I believe they helped with the second pull of my powercleans as well as my hangcleans and hang snatches. I was looking for some glute specific hypertrophy work and this worked pretty well I would say when combined with deep squats, RDLs, or stepups as the main lift of the day.

    However, the stress the bar puts on my hips at higher loads created tight hip flexors so I haven’t been able to go heavy enough to drop below sets of 8 to even begin thinking of using this as a primary lift. I might just need a wider bar pad, but currently because of the additional hip flexor/lower abdominal pain associated with the lift, and since I’ve moved onto lower grade hills and flat accels in my training this fall, I really can’t justify using them anymore except for possibly in a higher rep circuit style lift.

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    star61 on #101401

    Carl, you indicate that a problem exists in terms of training time and what effect would result if you sacrificed time spent on current resistance exercises if you included thrusts, which are not proven to improve max velocity. That begs the question, what exercises do you now include that HAVE been proven to improve max velocity? I’m not talking 0-30m speed, but 40-60 speed (i.e. flying 20 or 30 times).

    Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #101405

    Star61,

    I think max speed is more plyo and actual sprinting while acceleration is more weights. I do think we have a central battery (pool of energy to work with) and intense work including barbell hip thrusts will drain from it. Whatever the composition of exercises and plyos and sprints work there is a reason for it. What would your set-up be? I am not familiar of what you do and who you coach but what is your experience on the matter. Anyone have a workout template to share about their integration? What are your thoughts?

    I do think hip extension exercises are more for the fall. I don’t care what people do, but don’t just do air thrusts as Bret mentioned. I have no problem with a bb hip thrust at 315 as that’s heavy weight for an exercise that gets the boom boom, but light reps is light reps. The glutes are strong extensors in sprinting and need to be strong…..Bret has shared resources of getting a real pad so your hips don’t get beat up. 35 dollars right?

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    Skinnykid1021 on #101414

    Would Reverse hypers work the same muscles as these hip thrusts?

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    star61 on #101435

    Star61,

    I think max speed is more plyo and actual sprinting while acceleration is more weights. I do think we have a central battery (pool of energy to work with) and intense work including barbell hip thrusts will drain from it. Whatever the composition of exercises and plyos and sprints work there is a reason for it. What would your set-up be? I am not familiar of what you do and who you coach but what is your experience on the matter. Anyone have a workout template to share about their integration? What are your thoughts?

    I do think hip extension exercises are more for the fall. I don’t care what people do, but don’t just do air thrusts as Bret mentioned. I have no problem with a bb hip thrust at 315 as that’s heavy weight for an exercise that gets the boom boom, but light reps is light reps. The glutes are strong extensors in sprinting and need to be strong…..Bret has shared resources of getting a real pad so your hips don’t get beat up. 35 dollars right?

    My point in asking the question was not to compare notes or to find out about your set up, I was hoping to learn what exercises, other than flat max speed sprinting, you currently use that have been shown to actually improve max speed. My understanding is that NO resistance exercise have been shown to improve max speed sprinting, whether it be weights, plyos, sleds or hills. My understanding is that only sprinting improves max speed. I have heard some references to bounding improving max speed, but have not seen a study confirming it.

    As per Bret and others like him, they introduce novel approaches and exercises that ‘might’ be of use. I’d like to see some studies with exercises other than squats, plyos and Olympic lifts…there are dozens and dozens of those. I hate to stifle someone who’s actually trying to find an exercise that might do for max speed what squats, plyos, Olys, sleds and hills do for 0-30m. Even if he’s wrong, at least he’s looking.

    EDIT: On this topic, do you happen to have the full version of…

    Resistance Training for Short Sprints and Maximum-speed Sprints by Young et al?

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    star61 on #101436

    Would Reverse hypers work the same muscles as these hip thrusts?

    I would thinks so, but not many have access to a proper Reverse Hyper.

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    Martijn de Lange on #101458

    I remember an interview with Charlie Francis from 1987 in which he said something like “We already know which exercise, type of run, we need to do to improve maximum speed and performance. The trick is to assign the training load at the correct time and recover from it properly.”

    I think these words have stood the test of time. If anything, there has been, in no small part thanks to Charlie, a move away from doing so-called ‘specific’ work off the track (e.g. overspeed devices, special jumps or weight exercises) to a re-appreciation of general work, in the gym, on the grass.

    Now about hip thrusts, I suppose you can incorporate them in a general circuit but there are a host of alternatives. Some people may need extra glut work because they have trouble activating them. If they do, they would have no talent for sprinting anyway!

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    JeremyRichmond on #101496

    Not sure which thread I should reply in but this one seems to be exercise type specific.

    Copying a post by Zach from a different thread and posting here;

    “Aside though from semantics. If you are trying to determine what forces are important to maintain MaxV you would first need to figure out what forces are causing the athlete to slow down. That will clue you in to which forces are likely most important to maintaining MaxV. Is it drag, kinetic friction, static friction, or gravity? An interesting analysis would be to have a dynamics PhD try to model the forces in MaxV running.”

    Forces due to gravity must be overcome by the extension of the knee (knee extensors) and/or the vertical vector component of the forces produced when the leg strikes the ground (hip extensors, knee flexors, foot extensors)

    Force due to friction with the ground; estimated to be 2-3% (Babic et al).

    Force due to air resistance; approximately 40N at 12 m/s.

    If you look at the end result of maxV sprinting at world class level (with a running technique designed to overcome these forces), the resultant force angle against the ground is around 85 degrees at 12 m/s which is about a 3 degree differential to the lean of the body thus balancing gravity, air resistance and inertia. The net result of hip extension, knee extension, knee flexion, calf extension is the torque about the upper body mass at a 3 degree differential between upper body lean and force angle of net resultant magnitude around 800-900N. Do any of these hip extension exercises put forward by the ‘hip man’ or an other, address this torque requirement and force magnitude without even mentioning rate of force development?
    Otherwise what type of exercise would?

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    Randy Gillon on #101520

    Just to be antagonistic…When one says there’s NO resistance exercise that improves speed is that the same as saying that weight training doesn’t develop speed? If that’s the case then why don’t we see more athletes not lifting?

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