Acceleration phase

Posted In: The Classics

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    2belite on #21730

    [i]Originally posted by Phoenix[/i]
    2belite or not 2belite, that is the question…..what forebrain things are they lacking that they can't have experienced running 10.2? What are the differences that we are missing?

    I am not saying they/you are missing anything. IMO sprinting is not all hind brain. It's obvious we all don't agree with that, so maybe it's best if we agree to disargee.
    As for me telling you what it takes to run at an elite level, I can't, there are too many factors. However, the advice I could give, is not to buy into any coach's theory completely. If a coach is capable of transfering knowledge he is also capable of transfering error. If you accept a theory you also accept the limits of that theory.
    Let me tell you a story of a conversation I had with coach Tellez once. I asked him what was the sense of having sprinters run as far as 400m in practice, do they really need to go that far? He said "yes they need the strength." So I continued………. why would you need to be in that kind of shape to run a good 100m? He look at me, then said "who said anything about shape…….if I wanted to get you in shape all I need is a 50 yard hall way." I was shocked, so I asked him to explain. He said "the 400m builds strength…..after 300m it's hard to keep your hips up …you really have to push". I wanted to make sure I got what he was saying, so I look at him and asked, are you talking about strength….like weight room strength. His answer "yea, what else".
    For years I thought the idea behind 500m and 400m breakdown was to get sprinters in shape, and here this man was using it to build strength. After he explained that to me, I realize while smtc would run 400s like they were running the 100m(same mechanics). This may not seem like a big deal to many, but if you coach sprinters you would know that most sprinters adapt their mechanics to fit the distance of a run. It is much more efficient to run a 400m with a lower hip hight than is required for success in a 100m. This change, prevents the right musculture from being fully developed. (it's hard to run a 400m with the hips that high,but it trully does build strength in the hip extensors if done right)
    The whole point of that long story is this; a lot of those runs are done in the intermediate zone. The same zone that one great coach says you should avoid. He is also the same coach that says sprinting is all hind brain. Now am I saying that Francis is wrong, no. Could Tellez use weights instead to build hip strength, maybe. All I am saying is don't lock yourself to anyone's theory, or you will end up locking yourself to their limits also.
    :yawn:

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    2belite on #21731

    Your 47 in practice? How can you brag about a practice time and expect me to take you seriously?

    Dam bro, I not trying to beef with you. You seem to be so bent on fighting with me that you are missing my points. Do you think I am bragging about running 47 in practice. The reason why I said I did it in October is because practice started in Sept. I was trying to bring across the point that I was racing in practice instead of learning how to run (47s after 5week of practice is stupid, especially when the first few weeks consisted of tempo and weights). I hope someone saw the point I was trying to make.
    I thought your 10.10 had a 7.0 w reading,my bad. Btw Xavier is my good buddy, if I remember right didn't you run for shore ac the same time as him. I've also seen you run a few times, not bad for the north-east (hard training conditions). I remember I saw you run in NJ, I don't remember the name of the track, but I think you got second behind Jon Carter from Florida. If I remember right Chris Williams was in that race and you beat him. He ended up running 20.02 and you were putting yours hands on him. SoI know you had it bro, I got no beef with you or your mentor Francis.

    Mike Young
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    Mike Young on #21732

    Gentlemen, we are waaaaaaaay off topic. Let's take this discussion to another thread and leave this one for acceleration mechanics.

    ELITETRACK Founder

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    utfootball4 on #21733

    there always talk about the acc phase or drive phase, as i watched some films of some world class guys it doesnt look like they are in the typical acc phase position for very long (the 45 degree body angle etc) most of them are upright and some of them are upright but holding there head down, so im i wrong or what?

    Mike Young
    Keymaster
    Mike Young on #21734

    The body angle should change progressively. The 45 degree recommendation is somewhat arbitrary and doesn't have any real foundation in biomechanics. It certainly isn't effective to stay at a static position considering the athlete needs to be upright at some point. Therein lies one of the primary issues of acceleration- Lower departure angles from the blocks are advantageous for acceleration and in most cases can only be pulled off by the best sprinters. Regardless though they still need to stand up tall and run with proper top-end speed mechanics if they want to be effective beyond 40m.

    ELITETRACK Founder

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    utfootball4 on #21735

    The body angle should change progressively. The 45 degree recommendation is somewhat arbitrary and doesn't have any real foundation in biomechanics. It certainly isn't effective to stay at a static position considering the athlete needs to be upright at some point. Therein lies one of the primary issues of acceleration- Lower departure angles from the blocks are advantageous for acceleration and in most cases can only be pulled off by the best sprinters. Regardless though they still need to stand up tall and run with proper top-end speed mechanics if they want to be effective beyond 40m.

    i hear coaches all the time on the forum speaking bout "getting my athletes to drive out/acc as far as possible", what exactly do they mean?

    Mike Young
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    Mike Young on #21736

    i hear coaches all the time on the forum speaking bout "getting my athletes to drive out/acc as far as possible", what exactly do they mean?

    It could be one of two things a misunderstanding of race distribution or an attempt to manipulate race distribution to have a positive affect on the outcome of the entire race. In the case of the former many coaches here Mo, Gatlin, etc talk about drive phase this and drive phase that and they take home that the proverbial drive phase is the most important part of a race. In the latter scenario, it's an attempt to delay reaching top end speed through either throttling back intensity or manipulating body positions so that the athlete decelerates less at the end of the race.

    ELITETRACK Founder

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    utfootball4 on #21737

    [quote author="utfootball4" date="1162095208"]
    i hear coaches all the time on the forum speaking bout "getting my athletes to drive out/acc as far as possible", what exactly do they mean?

    It could be one of two things a misunderstanding of race distribution or an attempt to manipulate race distribution to have a positive affect on the outcome of the entire race. In the case of the former many coaches here Mo, Gatlin, etc talk about drive phase this and drive phase that and they take home that the proverbial drive phase is the most important part of a race. In the latter scenario, it's an attempt to delay reaching top end speed through either throttling back intensity or manipulating body positions so that the athlete decelerates less at the end of the race.
    [/quote]

    heres a comment made by danimal9 "As long and rapid an acceleration as possible."

    Mike Young
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    Mike Young on #21738

    heres a comment made by danimal9 "As long and rapid an acceleration as possible."

    This is true in an ideal world but in reality it doesn't (can't) quite work that way because top end speed is finite so rapid acceleration and duration of acceleration can't both be maximized at the same time.

    ELITETRACK Founder

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    Daniel Andrews on #21739

    [quote author="utfootball4" date="1162095727"]
    heres a comment made by danimal9 "As long and rapid an acceleration as possible."

    This is true in an ideal world but in reality it doesn't (can't) quite work that way because top end speed is finite so rapid acceleration and duration of acceleration can't both be maximized at the same time.
    [/quote]

    Mike is exactly right.  However, I think my comment should be thought of optimizing acceleration, ie find the right amount of rate of change in velocity and the duration of time that occurs till that rate of change in velocity stops.  Top end speed is finite, but the finite determinants of top end speed are dependent on both the length and the rate of change in acceleration.  The length a maximal acceleration can occur seems to be in the range of 4-7s, although research seems to be showning that males can accelerate for 4.5-6s range and females 5-7s so there does seem to be some physiological mechanisms that differentiate males from females in acceleration durations. 

    My thoughts are this, you cannot do both as Mike says, but you can work towards optimal acceleration patterns for races by working from the rate of change perspective first and trying to lengthening it to a maximal distance/duration as distance and duration are invariably linked to a specific rate of change pattern.  You work a pure acceleration phase, focusing on block clearance, and establishing stride pattern optimizations thru submaximal stride rates and longer contact times to establish greater force application maximum distances worked are 15-25m.  Then you start working at distances from 30-60m with emphasis on transistioning to maximal velocity and maximal velocity work as well.  However, there are times when the technical aspects of block clearance and the first 3-5 steps out of the block need to be revisited during this time to ensure the motor pattern has been learned.  This period often includes 30-60m sprints and extending ins and outs markers, and increased number of flys while the former period has fewer fly's and IO's are done over 10-20-10 or 10-10-10 working on the technical aspects of ins and outs.

    Mike Young
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    Mike Young on #21740

    The length a maximal acceleration can occur seems to be in the range of 4-7s, although research seems to be showning that males can accelerate for 4.5-6s range and females 5-7s so there does seem to be some physiological mechanisms that differentiate males from females in acceleration durations.

    I'm unfamiliar with this research. Can you point me in the right direction. 

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    Daniel Andrews on #21741

    It's an observation I made of the research.  Look at the article you have by Frank Dick, The MSSE article from 1979 of p 332-337 of Velocity Curve by Volkov and Lapin.  An Article by Coh and Tomazin (Track Technique, i believe) doesn't specifically point to this but looking at how some things don't add in article to attribute to differences between 2 groups I am assuming they didn't investigate this possibility.  Maybe I jumped to a conclusion I can't support emperically, but there does seem to be a difference when related to 100m times.   

    Mike Young
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    Mike Young on #21742

    It's an observation I made of the research.  Look at the article you have by Frank Dick, The MSSE article from 1979 of p 332-337 of Velocity Curve by Volkov and Lapin.  An Article by Coh and Tomazin (Track Technique, i believe) doesn't specifically point to this but looking at how some things don't add in article to attribute to differences between 2 groups I am assuming they didn't investigate this possibility.  Maybe I jumped to a conclusion I can't support emperically, but there does seem to be a difference when related to 100m times.   

    Thanks. I wasn't trying to call you out or anything…just was curious to see if there was some research that actually examined this directly.

    ELITETRACK Founder

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    Daniel Andrews on #21743

    It's probably too intense for a masters project to have it investigated properly, but I may put it in my back pocket if I decide to pursue and be accepted into a doctorate program. 

    Has the NSA stuff with data from last year WC's come out yet?  I need to look at some of that.

    Mike Young
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    Mike Young on #21744

    Has the NSA stuff with data from last year WC's come out yet?  I need to look at some of that.

    Not that I'm aware of. I'm not an NSA subscriber and I rarely get the opportunity to read it so it could have come out. The USATF data is out there. Kebba has posted it to the site for the past 2-3 years.

    ELITETRACK Founder

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