8 steps and 7 Steps

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  • Carl Valle
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    Carl Valle on #15048

    Approach with 8 StepsApproach with 7 StepsWhen looking at speed over the hurdle is to look at the hips as they are the center of mass. We are going to use 8 steps to keep him consistent this year but from a long term approach I don’t want to limit his college coach if a few years from now 7 is the new 8. I will review a more advanced hurdler and share what we plan to address in detail later.

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    lumberjack on #74483

    How tall is your athlete?

    Carl Valle
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    Carl Valle on #74485

    6’1″ and growing as he is 16

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    lumberjack on #74486

    To me the biggest issue with the 7 step approach would be getting into a rythmn that is similar to the steps in between the hurdles in the last three strides going into H1. Then the adjustment isn’t very difficult adjusting to getting his feet down between hurdles. When I look at his 7 step approach it looks like he gets better velocity with that approach, but he is lengthening his stride in the last steps going into H1. In the 8 step it looks like he’s a bit close to the hurdle so his takeoff is compromised. I wonder if as he got stronger he could push out bigger especially in steps 1-3, then tighten it up in the last three steps. I haven’t worked with enough male hurdlers to know how possible that is.

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    Chad Williams on #74487

    It didn’t seem like one was distinctly faster than the other at this stage, have you timed him to determine which one is faster to the first hurdle?

    I was hand timing on first movement out of curiosity.

    Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #74488

    The main problem I have with 7 step approaches is that it needs to be included only if they can perform in meets better or the same as an 8 approach. With most HS programs barely running with a shortage of track coaches how many athletes should be doing 7 steps? I would argue that 7 steps is equal to the amount of of left handed vs right handed people. 8 steps for everyone (99%?).

    His velocity is better with 7 steps but his is more consistent with 8 steps over 39. Also at hurdle three he is in a better rhythm. The velocity is not much better at 7 yet but practicing 7 gets his first 3-4 steps better and it’s easier to go down and work turnover for 8 with you have the strength for 7.

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    johnstrang on #74489

    It looked like the seven step was a lot smoother. It actually makes me wonder why I have never thought to try that. I am always running up on the first hurdle, I start my blocks 6 inches farther back than normal and have to stutter, thanks for bringing this up.

    Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #74490

    I am in no means trying to start a revolution but it takes a WR Holder like Robles to validate 7 steps working. Not all can do it but how many can? The problem is that many in college down 8 step right so 7 steps is thrown out. Like 300 or 400 hurdles in HS, I think all kids should practice 100m acceleration patterns as well as 110m patterns to give them a skill set of acceleration ability.

    His PR is 15.3 HT but 14.4-14.6 is realistic this year. Goals for him is Sub 14 senior year.

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    johnstrang on #74491

    I am in no means trying to start a revolution but it takes a WR Holder like Robles to validate 7 steps working. Not all can do it but how many can? The problem is that many in college down 8 step right so 7 steps is thrown out. Like 300 or 400 hurdles in HS, I think all kids should practice 100m acceleration patterns as well as 110m patterns to give them a skill set of acceleration ability.

    His PR is 15.3 HT but 14.4-14.6 is realistic this year. Goals for him is Sub 14 senior year.

    Ya I agree, but I would definitely like to try it out. Im fairly fast(10.74 100m) and I always feel like my 60m hurdle race is simply a recovery from a bad first hurdle. Do you think with the 7 step it lets you have an extra 1 or 2 drive contacts instead of me having to pop up right away?

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    J Kilgore on #74492

    I think 7 steps could work well if the athletes are strong enough and really push out of blocks. I feel that most are too worried about seeing the hurdle and force themselves up too soon. Because of this they’ll end up reaching to takeoff.

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    Chad Williams on #74495

    The main problem I have with 7 step approaches is that it needs to be included only if they can perform in meets better or the same as an 8 approach. With most HS programs barely running with a shortage of track coaches how many athletes should be doing 7 steps? I would argue that 7 steps is equal to the amount of of left handed vs right handed people. 8 steps for everyone (99%?).

    His velocity is better with 7 steps but his is more consistent with 8 steps over 39. Also at hurdle three he is in a better rhythm. The velocity is not much better at 7 yet but practicing 7 gets his first 3-4 steps better and it’s easier to go down and work turnover for 8 with you have the strength for 7.

    I see where 7 would have the distinct advantage in the long-term but I would think that 8 steps will remain the norm for 99% of the population. As you have pointed out, the rhythm of the race needs to be established early and ingrained. The 7 step rhythm requires a distinct switch in stride pattern, which would throw most novices. I remember reading an article on Robles and how he had to adjust to the rhythm change.

    Still interesting though, what does your athlete feel more comfortable with at the moment?

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    lumberjack on #74496

    I am in no means trying to start a revolution but it takes a WR Holder like Robles to validate 7 steps working. Not all can do it but how many can? The problem is that many in college down 8 step right so 7 steps is thrown out. Like 300 or 400 hurdles in HS, I think all kids should practice 100m acceleration patterns as well as 110m patterns to give them a skill set of acceleration ability.

    His PR is 15.3 HT but 14.4-14.6 is realistic this year. Goals for him is Sub 14 senior year.

    Robles is very interesting to me. His trail leg comes very high and down quickly then steps 2 and 3 look slow like he’s bounding with a very low knee lift the two steps preceding the hurdle. It doesn’t look to me quite like the choppy shuffles like Liu and others. I think he takes off further than most elites too. The Paris Golden League was the first time I saw him in person and I thought wow he’s just jogging and killing everyone, then the time came up at 12.88 and I was stunned.

    Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #74498

    I have those videos on my firewire drive and refer to them as well as others.

    Robles touchdown is closer to the hurdle as he has very minimal snap down. This may change the clasic view of flight paths as most just wish to have the apex before but he is actually pushing the envelope. His gait is much more like a sprinter off of step one but his shuffle is lower on steps two and three. Thus why his take off is so far away as he can shorten the steps enough to keep the speed off of the hurdle while minimizing air time.

    Minimizing air time is maximized only if the take off rolls to the tarsals otherwise the trail leg will not step down fast enough.

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    coachformerlyknownas on #74502

    If you are going to keep speaking to the hurdles at a higher level than us mortals, would ya at least invest in a tripod. That way I have a fighting chance to see (in YouTube) what you are seeing in person.

    Do the blocks “ring” “sing” as he departs?

    To borrow from an earlier subject of yours, if he employs a “cut step” out of the blocks
    (not sure due to vid quality, but think thats what I am seeing) how does that factor into all the concerns around coming up on # 1, trail leg over #1, general H rhythm, and actual speed observed at #3.

    Then, (speaking of the 7 or 8) in general how do you feel about neg. shin angle out to 3?

    Carl Valle
    Participant
    Carl Valle on #74503

    Tripod check!

    The blocks don’t ring consistently but as his power is increased they will.

    Right now his simple exposure to doses of work are allowing things to improve. His trail leg is forced and too high but it’s clearing the hurdle better and will change his rhythm to become smoother while accelerating off the hurdle.

    He is getting better but we will have to keep working on striking the track better.

    Thanks for the observations.

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