400m (again) LA capacity vs. tolerance

Posted In: The Classics

  • Avatar
    Participant
    rong on #8707

    I know this subject go a lot of attention earlier. I would like to hear opinions on if and when to best implement intensive tempo (capacity work), special 1, special 2(tolerance work)

    the model i have always been most comfortable with is working from “both ends to the middle”

    working from ext. tempo, to int temp to special 1 and speical 2

    while at the same time working from acc to max v to the speed endurances.

    I would also like to hear other options to the above model.

    Another question is why does a program like Baylor or others seem to have repeated success. (i hope the answer isn’t “because they get great talent”)

    I am hoping this ‘layman” can learn some things.

    Avatar
    Participant
    jjh999 on #23752

    Hi Ron,

    Glad you've joined the board!

    My $0.02:

    I introduce intensive tempo work around the 5-6th microcycle of the year. I utilize it primarily at the end of each microcycle (i.e. Saturday) in order to get the high intensity acc dev/max v work in during the week. I typically move to Special Endurance runs as the indoor season approaches. I begin the Special Endurance implementation by utilizing split runs and then progress to the full run (i.e. split 300s—> 2x 250 @ 95%, Full R).

    Hope this stimulates some discussion.

    (ALL: Please forgive my infrequent posts as of late…Hopefully that will change soon)

    Avatar
    Participant
    rong on #23753

    i would like to read a discussion behind the physiology involved with intensive tempo as well as special 1 and 2? what is the effect of special end. work on the nervous system? how long can you continue special end work before it creates negative returns on the nervous system?

    if you were to run 3 x 160m with 20 sec rest, where would that hybrid workout be classified?

    let's talk about the 400m specialist who is not going to be a national qualifer at 100m or at 800m.

    Avatar
    Participant
    bo-reed on #23754

    Hello – my name is bo and I am a junior college coach in az.
    anyway I come from the distance side of things and was curious to know for a 400 meter runner in strength or conditioning phase how long would be a threshold run, and do you go by time or distance.
    thanks,
    Bo

    Avatar
    Participant
    400stud on #23755

    What exactly would you do for a threshold run, when is this strength/conditioning phase (relative to comp.'s and the rest of the season), and what is your purpose in using them?

    Avatar
    Participant
    Todd Lane on #23756

    intensive- i've thought of as way to teach body to deal with hydrogen state and become more efficient in dealing with it.

    similar question to Ron's on Baylor- I see successful 400 programs with high volume (Minnesota, Baylor, South Carolina, ECU). I think the way that people train goes in cycles and high volume seems to be popular with porgrams that are successful. Don't know if i've read of program similar to something JJ mentions (JJ I am exactly same in micro setup). Would like to see those that do what JJ mentions with success.

    Could someone take a shot at explaining philosophy behind high volume training for 400. I'm talking about program that is doing some sort of tempo/spec end etc 3-4 times a week.

    I think 3 x 160 20 sec rest would be spec end 2. higher velocities achieved. someone help me, but would higher levels of lactate be produced? doesn't lactate peak shortly after work is completed,so with 20 seconds, would be starting in higher lactate level then if just went straigh 480m.???

    high levels of lactate is hard on nervous system.

    bo- are you bo reed, national class distance runner in early 90's, made world cross team or two??

    Mike Young
    Keymaster
    Mike Young on #23757

    I like JJ's setup and Ron's ends-to-middle concept and would use something similar if I worked with any sprinters. Even with the jumpers, we still do our intensive tempo, special endurance, etc. on Saturdays.

    As for the physiology of lactate inducing workouts on the nervous system, I think we're pretty much talking about the peripheral nervous system and not the central nervous system. That's because the lactate will be generally localized and shouldn't have an effect on anything but the motor units within the local area. I think the training effect would probably be one or both of the following:
    1. Increasing lactate threshold meaning less lactate produced at a given speed and less subsequent H+ interference on motor unit operation.
    2. Alteration of neural thresholds to operate more normally in the presence of increased H+ ions.

    Todd-
    I can't speak for other programs, but I know Pat uses what you might consider higher volume training with lots of tempo and less true speed because he is concerned about the increased likelihood of injury that running at higher speed brings. I think this might be especially important for 400m runners who can probably afford to lose much less conditioning time compared to their short sprint counterparts. As a result, it might not be the best way to produce super fast 400m runners but it might be the least risky and subsequently produce a greater number of fast 400m runners.

    ELITETRACK Founder

    Avatar
    Participant
    Todd Lane on #23758

    less true speed because he is concerned about the increased likelihood of injury that running at higher speed brings.

    but what happens when they actually are called upon to produce these higher levels of true speed, say in a 4 x 1 situation? injury?

    Avatar
    Participant
    rong on #23759

    Mike can you speak to what is occuring pysiologically when doing intensive tempo vs special 1 vs special 2. what are the differences. what are the risks/rewards?

    Mike Young
    Keymaster
    Mike Young on #23760

    [i]Originally posted by RonG[/i]
    Mike can you speak to what is occuring pysiologically when doing intensive tempo vs special 1 vs special 2. what are the differences. what are the risks/rewards?

    Ron-
    I think both Special Endurance 1 and Special Endurance 2 runs place a high demand on the CNS and muscular system and are also useful at training the specific energy systems necessary for high level sprinting. Compared to Special Endurance 1, Special endurance 2 would generally be less taxing on the CNS and more taxing on the anaerobic glycolysis energy system and have a greater training effect on lactate threshold and tolerance. Intensive tempo is similar to speed endurance and both Special Endurance 1 and 2 but is much less intensive on all of the above mentioned characteristics and might best be thought of as a lead in to those workouts. Also, intensive tempo will (indirectly?) train the aerobic system to a much greater extent due to the much shorter rest intervals and slightly higher volume.

    ELITETRACK Founder

    Avatar
    Participant
    rong on #23761

    just what i am looking for. my next question involves the length of time spent to see desired training effects. and how does that work hinder speed levels.

    Avatar
    Participant
    Kebba Tolbert on #23762

    I thnk that when you're really banging away at Special Endurance work you'd better be pretty close to your desired speed levels for that cycle or time of year.

    You'll get some bounce, however, from the rest

    Mike Young
    Keymaster
    Mike Young on #23763

    [i]Originally posted by todd[/i]

    but what happens when they actually are called upon to produce these higher levels of true speed, say in a 4 x 1 situation? injury?

    I can't deny we had some injuries to some of our 400m guys but as usual it's difficult to tease out exactly what was the cause of the injury….you may very well be correct though. Interestingly, we won both relays at NCAAs using the same 4 guys for both.

    ELITETRACK Founder

    Mike Young
    Keymaster
    Mike Young on #23764

    Ron-
    Others could probably speak to this point better than me as my experience with sprinters is considerably less than some other members, but I don't think that intensive tempo would have any real serious effects on sprint speed if it was used appropriately in step with workouts to develop MaxV. Also, I generally tend to think that 3 weeks (with 1+ workout a week) is about the minimum you'd want to spend on any training parameter that you are trying to develop. Any less than that, and you might not be getting all that you could for your time investment. Likewise, spending too much time on anything (in my opinion ~2 mesos) without changing any of the workout parameters might be time wasted as an athlete will soon reach a point of limiting returns.

    ELITETRACK Founder

    Avatar
    Participant
    rong on #23765

    back to "both ends to the middle"

    we obviously spend time working acc and max v

    we have some extensive tempo then to intensive tempo and then special endurance 2.

    but how about the middle. how about the short speed endurance, speed endurance and special endurance 1

    can we talk about how the speed endurances are implemented into 400m training.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 28 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.