400 meter workouts

Posted In: The Classics

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        rhino47 on #8403

        does any have any work outs that i could do over the summer for the 400. i run a 22.7 200, 35.4 300, and a 49.1r. i plan on running 6 days a week hola.

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        QUIKAZHELL on #20343

        Why dont you give us a sample week of what you have been doing or what you plan on doing so we can use it as a starting point and critique it and help you out.

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        rhino47 on #20344

        I dont have any workouts for the summer yet.

      • Mike Young
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        Mike Young on #20345

        Here's a generic workout for a high school 200 / 400 guy who's not competing over summer:

        *Everyday preceded by general warmup, static and dynamic flexibility, sprint or mobility drills, and either a lunge series or hurdle flexibility.

          [*]Monday: 6 x 200m w/ 3' rest followed by lifting.
          [*]Tuesday: tempo (i.e- 8 x 150m on grass at 80% with 45' rest) followed by general strength
          [*]Wednesday: 2 x (20m, 30m, 40m); then 2 x 150m followed by weights.
          [*]Thursday: 15 minutes Fartlek or aerobic capacity circuit followed by general strength
          [*]Friday: 5 x 300m w/ 2' rest followed by lifting.
          [*]Saturday: 30-60 minutes general activity (basketball, bike, tennis, etc.)
          [*]Sunday: rest

        Kebba, JJ, Carl, Todd, Quik, Stu and others, I'd be interested to hear what you'd recommend.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        fastdude-24 on #20346

        i'll give it a shot…
        mon- speed. 2-3 x 20,40,60 full rec. + weights
        tues- grass barefoot stuff. 5x 150-200 get around 800m-1000m of work with minimal rest "tempo" 60-75%
        wed-4×150 fast.. 95% or so good rest
        thur- off
        friday- tempo stuff
        saturday -speed stuff. 2-3x 20,40,60
        mon- tempo.. etc
        weights on speed days. I am not good at assigning weigth days.. sorry:D

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        jjh999 on #20347

        Mike,

        I think your post is a very nice well-rounded summer program. Here are my 2 cents…

        I like to use the summer to work on some deficiencies that the athlete has. For instance, if they are generally weak athletes, I would probably skew the emphasis more toward building max strength and use tempo runs as recovery and an opportunity to practice posture and technique. Likewise, if I think the athlete has a problem holding posture throughout the race, I might skew the emphasis on split runs (300-100) where the focus of the 100 is purely on postural maintenance.

        Otherwise, for a high school 400 guy, I would encourage general strength development along with technical practice…I would also do as many sessions on the grass if possible…

        Just my AM pre-caffeinated thoughts…

        JJ

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20348

        [i]Originally posted by JJ[/i]
        Just my AM pre-caffeinated thoughts…

        "AM pre-caffeinated thoughts" …..those never seem to happen for me (at least in the AM after waking up :D).

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        rhino47 on #20349

        what would be an example of general strength development along with technical practice?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20350

        General strength is typically body weight calisthenics that strengthen the major and minor muscles as well as the soft tissue elements which heavy weight lifting may not sufficiently address.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Todd Lane on #20351

        i'm assuming no comp until jan at the earliest and fall work.

        mon- acceleration (side step, cross over, rolling, walking, prone, hop-hop) x 5 each one to 15 meters on grass, very low level MJ circuit 10-15 sec intervals, heavy lift

        tues- 2 x 8 x 100 @ 70% (30") [3'] on grass

        wed- Very long warm up, weight room circuit or off

        thurs- 10-15 m fly x 8-10, low level MJ circuit

        fri- x-field- 10 x diaganol of fb field, walk back of endzone for recovery, lift

        or what i call tempo derivative (kind of altered from a conversation w/Kebba one time)
        Sprint Drill- 3 x 30m (30")
        Form Run- 3 x 30m (30")
        x 8-10, then lift

        Sat- some type of hill work
        Sun-do something non track related or nothing

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        Kebba Tolbert on #20352

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        Here's a generic workout for a high school 200 / 400 guy who's not competing over summer:

        *Everyday preceded by general warmup, static and dynamic flexibility, sprint or mobility drills, and either a lunge series or hurdle flexibility.[list]
        [*]Monday: 6 x 200m w/ 3' rest followed by lifting.
        [*]Tuesday: tempo (i.e- 8 x 150m on grass at 80% with 45' rest) followed by general strength
        [*]Wednesday: 2 x (20m, 30m, 40m); then 2 x 150m followed by weights.
        [*]Thursday: 15 minutes Fartlek or aerobic capacity circuit followed by general strength
        [*]Friday: 5 x 300m w/ 2' rest followed by lifting.
        [*]Saturday: 30-60 minutes general activity (basketball, bike, tennis, etc.)
        [*]Sunday: rest
        [/list]
        Kebba, JJ, Carl, Todd, Quik, Stu and others, I'd be interested to hear what you'd recommend.

        my personal thougts…

        1) i probably wouldn't do tempo two days in a row,,, if i felt the need for conseciutive days of general work i'd likely send them in the pool or play hoops or something….

        2) since 400m people tend to fairly poor at acceleration skills i might not go out to 40m in the beginning… i'd also consider hills (20-40m) as a means of developing acceleration skills for 400m athletes.

        3) 2 mins rest seems short for 300m runs.

        the overall design looks good however imho.

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        pete on #20353

        Why not tempo two days in a row? Poolshark posted a little while ago that he felt tempo two days in a row would really help nervous system recovery and I've done it a couple times since that post.
        Is it mainly the boredom factor?

      • Mike Young
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        Mike Young on #20354

        KT,
        You think 2' rest is too short even considering it is summer / non-competitive training? What would you recommend?

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        jjh999 on #20355

        [i]Originally posted by ktolbert[/i]
        [quote][i]Originally posted by mike[/i]

        2) since 400m people tend to fairly poor at acceleration skills i might not go out to 40m in the beginning… i'd also consider hills (20-40m) as a means of developing acceleration skills for 400m athletes.

        Alright KT, my turn to play devil's advocate:

        Who cares if your 400 guys have good acceleration mechanics? How important is the acceleration phase anyway? It can't be THAT much of a limiting factor, especially for a young 400 guy…

        (Just having some fun…)

        Devil JJ
        😛

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        Kebba Tolbert on #20356

        ok, Mr. Devil…..

        in general an efficient accel phase will help with the ability to sprint faster longer… but in the 400 so many people throw away changes for proper momentum development in the first part of the race…. i also think that some of the breakdown we see later in the race is due to these wasted opportunities.

        sometimes i just pretened the 400m is an "expanded 100m" in that people are precice and technical in the 100m but all of a sudden it's ok to be sloppy in the 400…. posture, elastic energy gain, and mechanics still matter in 400m… so why throw all that out in the first 80m?

        😎

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        dm on #20357

        My week at the moment (early season)-

        M – starts 3x3x30m
        plyos – 3 x 10 hops each leg
        gym – hang snatch, squat, various back extension exercises and abs

        T – active rest

        W – intensive tempo – 6x200m R=3 mins

        Th – plyos 6 x 60m bounds/hops/etc
        hills – 3 x long (300m) hills
        gym – same as Monday

        F – active rest

        S – special endurance – 2 x400m split reps (at the moment 200m+100m+100m) R=1min;full recovery

        Su – extensive tempo V=2000m reps between 200m and 500m

        3 weeks on, followed by 1 week rest and test (2 days of time trials 200m to 450m)

        Comments?

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        smcmillan on #20358

        Mike…..to be honest, I have never really had a good hold of 400m training, and not had a solid enough stable for long enough to do some experimenting…..beginning in 99, I coached a 46 flat guy for a year and a half before his retirement, and tried implementing a very similar layout as I do (did) with my short sprinters, which is influenced greatly by Dan.

        Basically, from cycle 1 right through to cycle 40, I followed the same weekly set-up:

        M: Acc Dev; hopping; core lifts
        T: Tech Dev; BB; GS
        W: Spd. Dev: Elastic.Str; core lifts
        R: Reg/Rec; GS; BB
        F: 20-30% reduction of vol fr. Monday
        S: Spd. End; GS; BB

        In Spec Prep, I would do Wednesday's elast str on Tuesdays, and start reducing the number of BB days.

        Obviously, I controlled for different intensities/volumes/densities throughout (eg. acc dev would get up to 18-21×30-40: after such a workout, lactate levels have been shown to get above 12-14mM/l, thereby reducing the need for additional lactate work), and I still feel such a program (w/ absolutely no tempo) can be successful (in fact, Dan has had success w/ a few quarter milers and 400 hurdlers this way); though, in retrospect, I should have added one easy tempo day/week, more from a psychological standpoint than anything physiological (btw, the athlete battled an on-going achilles problem all year and didn't run faster than 46.5).

        Like JJ, I would also like to play around w/ split runs as well as differentials (tempo-type 200 – blast the last 100, etc…).

        I think that the general qualities we develop (gs, heavy and light implement work, etc.) should not differ between short and long sprinters. Nor do I believe we should handle acc dev any differently. Kebba sums this up perfectly, I feel, in his response to JJ.

        As far as dm's plan, I would advise against following an extensive tempo day with a high quality CNS day, such as you have on Monday….my bet is the wired guys will feel flat. In your set-up, I would move S and Su back one day each, and have the active rest day on Sunday.

        Stu McMillan

      • Carl Valle
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        Carl Valle on #20359

        I find that doing a tempo session the day after speed or lactate is vital. Just taking a day off seems to keep the athletes tight and sore. I think that you can multilayer speed qualities and general lactate work as will as volume periodization as well….My two pesos….

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20360

        [i]Originally posted by SMcMillan[/i]
        As far as dm's plan, I would advise against following an extensive tempo day with a high quality CNS day, such as you have on Monday….my bet is the wired guys will feel flat. In your set-up, I would move S and Su back one day each, and have the active rest day on Sunday.

        This was the main thing I noticed too. I'd definitely try to put a rest day between the extensive tempo and acceleration development.

        As for the tempo stuff, I've only coached HS level 400m people (so by comparison Stu, your 46.5 guy wins out :D) but I think that its main value is less from its direct performance enhancement (which may be negligible) but more from a health / recovery standpoint. That is, it may aid in recovery from previous days workouts, has the potential to increase or maintain work capacity, and creates a low intensity opportunity to develop healthy joints, strengthen soft tissue, and enhance muscle capillaries; which might all indirectly enhance performance.

        Phoenix-
        Can you expand on "multi-layering speed qualities."

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        smcmillan on #20361

        Mike says: "That is, it (tempo)may aid in recovery from previous days workouts, has the potential to increase or maintain work capacity, and creates a low intensity opportunity to develop healthy joints, strengthen soft tissue, and enhance muscle capillaries; which might all indirectly enhance performance".

        I believe you can get more bang for your buck w/ gs/multi-throws/soft-tissue work, without the deleterious technical affects of slow tempo running…..do you have evidence that tempo develops healthy joints & strengthens soft tissue? I also don't believe it has the potential to maintain or increase work capacity in any manner specific to 400m racing.

        Also, I think this can be highly individual……in the past, I have had athletes who responded well to 'tempo for recovery', and others who have responded equally well w/ what I now do for recovery…..generally, I have found the more wired the athlete, the more they lean towards the non-tempo end of the spectrum.

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        QUIKAZHELL on #20362

        SMCMillan,
        you views are interesting reguarding the 400. do you mind posting a precomp and comp week with specific examples of workouts. That will help me get a clar picture of exactly what you are refering to.
        thanx

      • Carl Valle
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        Carl Valle on #20363

        Obviously, I controlled for different intensities/volumes/densities throughout (eg. acc dev would get up to 18-21×30-40: after such a workout, lactate levels have been shown to get above 12-14mM/l, thereby reducing the need for additional lactate work), and I still feel such a program (w/ absolutely no tempo) can be successful (in fact, Dan has had success w/ a few quarter milers and 400 hurdlers this way); though, in retrospect, I should have added one easy tempo day/week, more from a psychological standpoint than anything physiological (btw, the athlete battled an on-going achilles problem all year and didn't run faster than 46.5).

        The research is very clear in how low intensity training can improve connective tissue and bone.

        But joints have a wonderfully sophisticated structure that resists damage and adapts to stress.

        -Dr.Ebert Boston, Running Times

        The key word is adapts…I feel that low intensity thaining is vital in short term and in long term. Avulsions and ruptures can be prevented with such training….yet it is not repected since many high intensity training programs will be very successful from repeat bouts and specific distances.

        deleterious effects of tempo running? Like KT, I think the 400 should have the same attitude to posture and technique but I will allow my athletes to walk in shopping malls eventhough they are landing heel first and are holding one hand up talking on a cell phone. I don't think a high volume of tempo work will interfere with any biomechanics and thing general relaxation and cues can be leak in if orchestrated right.

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        smcmillan on #20364

        Carl……..I din't say that low intensity training was not important; just that I think it is handled more effectively w/ light implement/gs/and manual therapeutic means than tempo work…..I still disagree w/ you on a high volume of tempo work affecting technique; my experience has shown that this is true (from 94-97, I had my athletes do 2-3 tempo days/wk).

        On a side note (getting back to the original post), Balyi and Way (2002) identify windows of optimal trainability, which help to determine when certain qualities are optimally trained.

        In males, short speed is optimally trained (above all other qualities) from 7 to 9 yrs. Skill (technique) is optimally trained from ages 9 – 12. The lactate system is best suited to 13-15 yr olds. Strength is optimally trained from 16-18 yrs; and the aerobic system is best suited to the 14 – 17 year old.

        Using such models of long term development, we can best plan the ytps of our youth athletes.

        Zaichkowsky (1980) refers to such 'critical periods' as such: "a point in the development of a specific behaviour when experience or training has an optimal effect on development. The same experience, introduced at an earlier or later time, has no effect on, or retards later skill aquisition".

        Suitable stimuli, thus, must be timed properly in order to achieve optimal adaptation.

        Going back to Balyi's model, then – for a high school athlete, the two most trainable qualities are strength and the aerobic system. Perhaps we should keep this in mind when developing the training plan.

        Quik:
        sample comp (post-grad)
        M: acc dev (9-12×20-50); HH (3-5×5-10); Oly/Bench (4-6×1-2); dbJumpSQ (4-5×6-8 – 25-35%BW); weighted core.
        T: easy build-ups to 85-90% over 75-90mx6-9 or easy bounding; 200-300 reps GS in sets of 10-15; multi-throws (easy): 75-100reps
        W: spd dev (2-4×90-180 – full^); HH (2-3×8-10); Oly (5-8×1-2); dbJumpSQ (3-4×6-8 – 20-30%BW); weighted core
        R: 5-6×75 (75%); 200-300 reps GS; hurdle mobility
        F: same as M if no meet (reduced by 20-30%); if meet: 4-6xBlock starts (20-30) and either HH (20-30cc) or Oly (4-6×1-2 @85-90%)
        S: meet or spc. end (3-4×150-300 – full^)
        Su: active ^

        We must be careful in analyzing cycles in isolation, without knowing what came before, or what is to come after (the preceding may seem like a lot, but it is obviously built up to).

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        QUIKAZHELL on #20365

        i like how the setup is straight to the point…
        can you tell me what "200-300 reps GS in sets of 10-15" "200-300 reps GS" and "HH (3-5×5-10" means?

        thanx..

      • Carl Valle
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        Carl Valle on #20366

        What is considered high volume from your standpoint?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20367

        [i]Originally posted by SMcMillan[/i]
        Mike says: "That is, it ([i]tempo[/i])may aid in recovery from previous days workouts, has the potential to increase or maintain work capacity, and creates a low intensity opportunity to develop healthy joints, strengthen soft tissue, and enhance muscle capillaries; which might all indirectly enhance performance". I believe you can get more bang for your buck w/ gs/multi-throws/soft-tissue work, without the deleterious technical affects of slow tempo running…..do you have evidence that tempo develops healthy joints & strengthens soft tissue? I also don't believe it has the potential to maintain or increase work capacity in any manner specific to 400m racing.

        I think there is plenty of evidence which suggests that low intensity exercise in higher volumes (distances or reps) strengthen soft tissue. All exercise that puts stresses on the body will elicit some soft tissue remodelling. In fact high load stresses (like back squats) are great for bone (bone is a soft tissue) density and tendon strength. The issue here though is whether while doing exercises like the olympic lifts and plyos, the nervous system and high force output muscles will be developed at a much faster rate and thus outpace the development of the soft tissue. Don't get me wrong though, I really love GS stuff……just look through some of the older messages and you'll see I spout the values of it all the time.

        Also, I don't generally think of work capacity as being specific to any one thing. I like to think of work capacity as the general ability to handle more work. Even in light of this though, surely tempo running would increase work capacity in manner more specific to the 400m than GS work and I don't think MT as I think of them (and I think the way Dan also thinks of them) would meet the criteria I listed above for developing soft tissue (to an extent that could balance out the high horse power stuff).

        Fellas- keep up the GREAT posts….this is getting really interesting!

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        2belite on #20368

        SMcMillan, the build ups on tues are those 85-90% of the athlete's best time or is it by feeling/effort?
        Also, do you have any injury problems with your athletes? The reason I ask is, many of Dan's athlete's are always injured and alot of the college guys at UT (sprinters) fly the first 1-2 years then drop off.
        I can't see any type of bounding serving as recovery.

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        lumberjack on #20369

        [i]Originally posted by 2belite[/i]
        SMcMillan, the build ups on tues are those 85-90% of the athlete's best time or is it by feeling/effort?
        Also, do you have any injury problems with your athletes? The reason I ask is, many of Dan's athlete's are always injured and alot of the college guys at UT (sprinters) fly the first 1-2 years then drop off.
        I can't see any type of bounding serving as recovery.

        Dan does not coach the sprinters at UT. Dan is the field events coach. Bubba Thornton coaches the male sprinters, and I would not agree that Bubba's sprinters run well in the first year and tail off.

        What evidence do you have that Dan's athlete's are injured more than anyone else's?

      • Carl Valle
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        Carl Valle on #20370

        What I think 2belite is refering to injuries that require surgery? While the story I heard was that Donovan tore his achilles from playing hoops, one could ask if the attachment was stronger (via tempo) would he land himself in Tempe (AZ) with Physiotherapy Associates. Or, would people be flying up to Canada to work with Mark on a regular basis with connective tissue trauma such as pec tears? I am by the way PRO Dan and find him very impressive with his results and understanding of so many events…add in all the information he knows and you got one bad mama coach…….but I feel that rhythmic tempo is very important. I heard that Dan does GS work but I am not sure how he quantifies the intensities with such methods.

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        2belite on #20371

        Ok Lumberjack, Dan does not coach the male sprinters at UT I got that. However, I do have many sample workouts from them and they follow the same script; mon,wed, fri some sort of speed work. Tues, Thur technique build ups, lots of GS, bounding, hurdle mobility. Sat spc-end.
        So is it me of do you see the strong Dan influence. I could go on and list the weight workouts if you want to see more proof of Dan's influence.
        As for the UT sprinters that tail off, check L armstrong, O Johnson. I don't want to bash anyone's program, all I was trying to say is bounding is not recovery and tempo has its place.
        As for the injuries………….are you serious:o

      • Carl Valle
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        Carl Valle on #20372

        multilayered components-

        I base many of my sprint models of training and framework from poolsharks outlines of energy system's management. I feel that tempo work does not interfere with top speed mechanics unless they are doing marathons of crap mechanics. I expect stu to expand in great detail why volumes of low intensity work caused problems technique wise into his training.

        Layers of energy system/ power spectrum training is very similar to the vertical integration training by Francis and models by Paul Bergan and other swim coaches.

        The first aspect is you are handling the biomotor skills all at once since all qualities are needed to elicit the following.

        (1) Training capacity to so that an athlete can recovery from the design of the program not just through rest,nutrition and therapy.

        (2) A way to increase intensification through pure and classical models that have been coined as outdated or flawed.

        (3) A way to combine many progressions and models without interfering with improvements by overloading the athlete too much.

        Each layer can be a training element such as medball throws, tempo, speed work, mobility, ect, Each layer can have sub layers with independent needs WITHOUT focus on periodization/annual training plans.

        For example vertical plyos.

        When looking at the CNS demands of this exercise we must be realistic and place it during time that we feel can elicit a Gene Transcription via improvement of some sort. For example it would be part of the finite envelope of energy for one day, so perhaps the total CNS pool is 10 units. I could give vertical plyos 2.5 units, the runs themselves 5, medball tosses .5 , and weight room work 2 units.

        If I am strict I will give 2 units every session for one microcycle of 10 days. I could do various heights and distances on one day and change the 2nd and 3rd session independant of what I am doing with the speed and other power exercises. What makes it work in harmony is the existance and volume, not the intra layer purpose. I am not saying is random, but independant needs without too much fear of needs from an annual perspective. I might feel that specific starting strength was not developed in time for the comp phase, but I will not skip through progression of the elements based on the calendar…only progress at the rate the athlete can improve. This is why it is independant. I did not drink coffee this morning so sorry if this makes no sense.

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        smcmillan on #20373

        2belite: how can one run build-ups to a percentage of one's best times? This question makes no sense to me.

        Regarding injuries, people can come to false conclusions when on the outside looking in………let's look at some specific examples of high profile 'Dan' injuries.

        Most will look @ Donovan's career and think/assume he was injured all the time. He had 2 major injuries, both in 1997 while he was being coached by Loren Seagrave…..although Donovan often complained publicly about nagging injuries, this was more of a pyschological tactic than anything else…he was always ready when it mattered (pre-achilles tear); Oba has had recent injury problems, but for years he would skip workouts/weight/gs – whatever he could: in a nutshell, he was an injury waiting to happen: also, he was 9.8 guy getting no therapy….only recently has he started to turn things around and begin to take the program seriously. Bruny strained his adductor magnus, got some poor advice from his doctors in Montreal, and took a dozen or so cortisone shots to the most populated nerve area in the lower body ( just distal to the ischial tuberosity). Boz has had some foot problems which he continues to aggravate playing basketball, but he has shown up at every major meet, KST was healthy, Vince Henderson was for the most part healthy; Rohsaan has had his problems, etc…

        Anyway, the point is when you are training elite sprinters, you are constantly walking a very fine tightrope, trying to squeeze every ounce of potential out of your athletes (especially when they're drug-free)….ANY coach will experience injuries with his athletes.

        John Smith: Ato, Maurice, Inger Miller, Marie Jose Perec, etc…
        Charlie: BJ and Angela Issajenko, his only 2 consistent world-class sprinters were constantly injured.

        Like any coach, Dan has had problems with injuries to his athletes, but definetly no more than others; and I would argue, LESS.

        You asked if I have had injury problems w/ my athletes. In 10 years of coaching, I have had one athlete suffer a major injury (torn calf), that was more to do w/ a poor warm-up surface (astro-turf) and an awkward deceleration down a decline, than the training he was doing….would increasing volume of tempo have reduced the chance of this injury? Prior to this athlete joining me (18 months prior to the injury) he was a 'tempo guy' who was constantly dinged up. Another athlete came from Charlie's program and didn't put up a healthy season for the 3 years he was with him; in our program he was completely injury free, and enjoyed his 2 best seasons ever, after 15 years in the sport (2 silvers @ National Championships 100m)……

        I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I choose my mentors very carefully, and feel that a coach who has worked with the most sub-10 sprinters in history is probably more worthy of lionizing than one who had 2 good athletes 15 years ago, and to this day refuses to believe that man is capable of running sub-10 clean.

        Carl: I don't understand your reference to Mark and Tempe – sorry (I assume you're speaking of Lindsay).

        Getting back to tempo for 400…..Kevin Tyler did only one easy tempo (10×200 @30s w/ walk^) day per week with Shane Niemi fairly suuccessfully (Canadian record holder – 44.8). Shane's present coach does none (I believe), so it will be interesting to see how he runs this year.

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        jacko on #20374

        Great discussion guys, I have not posted for a while (Formerly jacko).
        Stu, Dan once told he that he let some of his sprinters (I assume the 400 types) do a 15-20min fartlek or progressive run in the am.
        He also suggested I try something like 500,400,300 every 10-14 days or so ….
        So even though you may produce a lot of la in the block starts a bit of tolerance may be nescssary too.

        PS
        Whoever had the samples from the UT sprinters please put some of the stuff up,
        there's plenty of people here who can tell you any differences between it and Dan's stuff (including the weight work).

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        2belite on #20375

        SMcMillan, my question about the build-ups and % ….is lame now that I think about it…….do forgive me.:(
        However, I do stand behind what I said about the injuries. I know Ro and Vince pretty well, and both had career ending foot injuries. Ro is still trying to run, but 21s and 20high for him is not running.(bounding is not recovery work) I know athletes get injured in every program, but it seems that all of Dan's top guys get hurt.
        Charlie Francis did not invent tempo, so I have no idea why 1/4 of your post was about him. I can care less if Charlie feel man can't run under 10 clean, does that take away the value of tempo.
        I can understand your desire to defend your mentor, but you should not close your eye to the obvious. Maurice was ranked #1 for about 5 years as was injury free up to 2001, Ato was good from about 95 to 2001. Tellez group had sprinters on top of their game for years injury free. SMcMillan give me a list of Dan's top guys that had 5,6,7 years of great seasons. Better yet which one is still running good now. Oba missing the GS work is probably what kept him good from 96/97 to 2000.

        Re Jacko, I don't need anyone to authenticate the sample workouts I have, being I got the from a UT coach. Also the notes on the sample that say " Tech Runs _see Dan!" sort of gives it away.

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        jacko on #20376

        2belite, I was not questioning the source of the information, I simply mean if you wanted to know if the whole program was similar to Dan's set up then there are people here that could tell you… But since you know these guys then I guess you don't need it.
        Re- Tempo or more specifically extensive tempo….. not convinced either way, In my situation time is limited so spending too much time on either GS circuits or Ext tempo is not a real good option, Good general endurance is important but there is a thousand ways to get it…as I think both Dan and Charlie would agree.
        PS
        Was there much of either in JOhn or Toms programs????

        Regards
        Andrew

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        lumberjack on #20377

        [i]Originally posted by Phoenix[/i]
        What I think 2belite is refering to injuries that require surgery? While the story I heard was that Donovan tore his achilles from playing hoops, one could ask if the attachment was stronger (via tempo) would he land himself in Tempe (AZ) with Physiotherapy Associates. Or, would people be flying up to Canada to work with Mark on a regular basis with connective tissue trauma such as pec tears? I am by the way PRO Dan and find him very impressive with his results and understanding of so many events…add in all the information he knows and you got one bad mama coach…….but I feel that rhythmic tempo is very important. I heard that Dan does GS work but I am not sure how he quantifies the intensities with such methods.

        Are you suggesting that Oba's pec injury was from lack of tempo running?…Come on. Tell me how tempo running would strengthen a pec muscle. Oba tore a pec from lack of following the program, not from any overuse or lack of tempo. For most of Oba's time in Austin he has not done much at all in the weight room, and has done different track programs from the rest of the group that included more low intensity/tempo work anyway.

        I am not saying that tempo can't have some place in a program, but I have seen far more injuries due to indescriminant use of large volumes of tempo than I have ever seen from a lack of it. Especially living in the far north with tight indoor tracks and hard surfaces with no opportunity to train on grass for the vast majority of the year. Stress fractures, tendinitis, shin splints, lower back injuries all from excessive volumes of running.

        One of the major problems that I see in many coaches that do a large amount of tempo work is that they see it as a means to improve speed endurance. Tempo running has absolutely no place in that area.

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        lumberjack on #20378

        [i]Originally posted by 2belite[/i]
        Ok Lumberjack, Dan does not coach the male sprinters at UT I got that. However, I do have many sample workouts from them and they follow the same script; mon,wed, fri some sort of speed work. Tues, Thur technique build ups, lots of GS, bounding, hurdle mobility. Sat spc-end.
        So is it me of do you see the strong Dan influence. I could go on and list the weight workouts if you want to see more proof of Dan's influence.
        As for the UT sprinters that tail off, check L armstrong, O Johnson. I don't want to bash anyone's program, all I was trying to say is bounding is not recovery and tempo has its place.

        Your sample size of two is not very convincing. Lawrence only spent three years at Texas, he was a JUCO transfer. He improved significantly by his second year and had a mediocre senior season, what does that show? As for Amar, who knows, but one guy is not an argument. Since he came to Texas, Bubba has simply not had much great talent in the sprints to work with. This year he has some good ones so we'll see how they progress.

        As for your workouts that the UT sprinters supposedly do that say 'tech runs – see Dan', in all the time I've spent in Austin I have never once seen Dan or Bubba give workouts on paper to a UT sprinter. Nor do I ever see UT sprinters do GS or many medicine ball throws, or even training on Saturday. The workouts you are seeing are Dan's post-collegiate workouts. Has Bubba been influenced by Dan since he hired him at UT? I would hope so, but UT sprinters do not do Dan's program.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20379

        [i]Originally posted by Lumberjack[/i]
        One of the major problems that I see in many coaches that do a large amount of tempo work is that they see it as a means to improve speed endurance. Tempo running has absolutely no place in that area.

        I think at least most everyone here could agree on this one. I think of tempo like I said above, as a possible means of recovery and developer of work capacity.

        As for injuries, I have this theory that athletes with the most horse power are the ones most likely to get injured….think about it, how many times do you see a 7 minute miler blow out their quad? This may or may not be due to what I said previously about the connective tissue / muscle strength ratios but either way, if this is the case, we should actually expect Dan's people to be injured at least as much as all the other groups out there considering the studs he's worked with.

        Also, let's keep this discussion a little more on point….the original discussion was SUMMER 400m workouts, so let's at least try to argue our opinions of tempo from the context of the point of the season…..perhaps this might clear some of our varying opinions up. For example, the training menu I gave would look quite different if it was not to be used for a non-competitive summer. I for one would not prescribe too much tempo after the midpoint of fall training. Stu, do you feel time spent on tempo would be better spent on GS, etc. for the whole year or do you think there are points in the year (i.e- non-competitive summer) when it can have value. The same question (only flipped) goes for all the supporters of tempo.

        Also Stu, you mentioned that MT would be good at developing work capacity, etc. This isn't how I'd typically thought of them. I would typically use them in much the same way I'd use the OL….to develop power. Can you please go into greater detail about how you use them. I will start another thread for this MT topic so we can leave this thread for 400m workouts. The multi-thread throw is here < https://elitetrack.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=222&page=1#pid1413 >

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        2belite on #20380

        Lumberjacj, I never said I got the workouts from a sprinter, I said I got it from a UT coach. In fact I got it from Dan. However, it would have looked really bad if I had said, here is a workout I got from Dan and then proceed to bash it. Dan has answered every question I've asked him and was very helpful to me. However, I can't lie to myself and pretend I don't see what I see.
        This is my last post on this subject and I am only responding because I feel Lumberjack is questioning my integrity:mad:

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        smcmillan on #20381

        Andrew…..I know Dan gives some fartlek and preogressive 20-25' runs to his multis – not sure about his 1/4 milers….I agree w/ you that LA tolerance work must be done, but is not taken care of w/ tempo (not saying that you said that – just making a point).

        2belite: I referred to Charlie, because it seems that he and his followers are the biggest proponents of tempo, while Dan stands on the other end of the spectrum – this is why I compared them.

        Mike: One of the common arguments FOR tempo is CNS recovery…..since CNS demands are lower earlier in the year (I assume most are not lifting 1rms and putting on spikes for max Vel runs in cycle 1), I find no reason to use tempo early and reduce it later….I prefer to load my regenerative work dependant upon the previous session(s)…….if i'm coming off a particularly taxing neural session, I will adjust the session accordingly…..I will post more on this on the multi-throws thread.

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        lumberjack on #20382

        [i]Originally posted by 2belite[/i]
        Lumberjacj, I never said I got the workouts from a sprinter, I said I got it from a UT coach. In fact I got it from Dan.

        This is my last post on this subject and I am only responding because I feel Lumberjack is questioning my integrity:mad:

        2belite, I apologize if it seemed as if I was questioning your integrity. The only point I was trying to make about the workout sheets is that UT sprinters do not do Dan's program, so comparing their progress or injury status to Dan's program is not fair to Bubba (their coach) or Dan. Dan writes his workouts for post-collegiate sprinters, hurdlers and jumpers on UT stationary and the sprinters on the actual UT team do not do those workouts. They do whatever Bubba tells them to do on the day, and that is often very different from what Dan does.

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        jacko on #20383

        Ok, summer 400m plan, no competition.
        Mon) Special end I (200-300m) 3-4 reps 95% + Weights
        Tue) extensive Tempo & GS
        Wed) SPeed Developemnt (Volume 300-600m) + WEights
        Thurs) Ext + GS
        Fri) SPecial End II (2-3 reps 300-600m) + WEights
        Sat) Ext + GS
        Sun) – Rest

        Tempo or GS ?? – Both on the general days with the % of each dependant on the particular athlete….everything is controlled by the quality (Speed & Technical ability) of the faster sessions.
        And yes the weekly model came from Charlie.F previously we used
        M SPeed
        T Speed End
        W regen
        T speed
        F tempo
        S Speed/Special End
        S Rest
        …It was a little too much to recover from.

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        pool-shark on #20384

        I have spent many years in Austin visiting my sister and taking a look at the University of Texas swimming and diving program. During my visits I would stop by the track and watch an array of athletes from Canada to learn more about the nervous system to better learn how to use speed training into my dryland conditioning circuits. I noticed that many athletes were missing workouts at a frequent basis. After asking why many of them proclaimed "to survive" and to "heal" from the training.

        With all of the fear of low intensity training as being the great evil of training, I wish people can explain why the high intensity work is divine? I will not get into doping issues on a board being involved with elite swimming, since I am sure FINA is reading this message board. As for tears what did happen to the runner?

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        fastdude-24 on #20385

        As for the 400m, I have read that after 40sec, the body is bathed in Lactic Acid. So how many of you train to that 40sec barrier? The way I see it, the farther one can get in 40sec the better off that person will be. So why not train to increase velocity? Why not focus on the speed of training? short to long, develop speed first, then move out into spec end stuff? Anyone work like this? or what about long to short? any thoughts?

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        Kebba Tolbert on #20386

        poolsharlk….that's pretty damning if i'm reading you the right way…

        but anyway, the high intensity work is "divine" because it's what created the potential for high level performance.

        i don't think the coaches on the board are saying that low intensity work doesn't have an impt place in training. where that place is within the macro, meso, and micro can be debated, however. As well, the means of low intensity with regard to stage of the training year seems to be impt as well.

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        Kebba Tolbert on #20387

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        KT,
        You think 2' rest is too short even considering it is summer / non-competitive training? What would you recommend?

        i tend to give 300m around 3-4 mins btw when they're working at 75% effort — about 42+ secs for a 50.0 guy…. i've never tried much less except when we just "stride" them or if i'm working with 800m and 400H people.

        sometimes with 200/400 we'll do:
        300m – jog 100- 300m – walk 500m

        maybe we'll do 2-4 sets of that…. the athletes hate it though

      • Carl Valle
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        Carl Valle on #20388

        I am still not clear what the problems with tempo are. If they do nothing why are they bad….why aren't they then zero(neutral)?

        How much is too much?

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        fastdude-24 on #20389

        not really a reply, but some thoughts…I watched the 400m at The Home Depot meet in LA last weekend and saw a few things. One was Harrison finishing with very quick turnover but with no heel recovery. His heel didn't come up very high at all relative to the rest of the field. Ana G. on the other hand had heel recovery from the blocks to the finish, diminishing of course. Any thoughts on this?? I would love to know what Marita Koch looked like when she finished.
        another thought… 40sec is lactate barrier from what i understand. How many people that train take this into consideration? The further along the track that you are at 40sec (velocity) the less time running you are into lactate.
        one more.. How many people train low to high for the 400m? What about high down to low?
        I hope this sparks some interest… I say we talk about this until someone gets into 43. this season!!!
        mike

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20390

        Regarding heel recovery, it's actually not an energy efficient way of running. It is however almost certainly necessary to produce maxmal power / force. As a result, it's no coincidence that the shorter the distance (and thus less need for energy efficiency and the greater need for maximal force / power) the higher the amplitude of movement and the greater the metabolic cost. I don't think that knee recovery is terribly important for 400m runners. I think foot contact position relative to COM and posture are far more important for the 400m runner. Quite a few great 400m runners have had relatively low knee recoveries, most notably Michael Johnson, and it never seemed to bother him too much.

        As for the timing factor and training, I don't think the 40 second guideline is either a set-in-stone figure for a given athlete or that it won't vary from athlete to athlete. One important thing I think we do need to take from it though is that a 50 second high school runner should not be trained the same as a 45 second elite quarter miler. Likewise, male and female 400m runners should only be trained identically if they're running similar times in competition.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        fluke on #20391

        Mike- do you train 400 runners (or any runners for that matter) based on hitting times in practices and not distances? Example- If you have your 50 second 400 runner and your 45 second runner, instead of having them both run intervals at 300m, would you have them run for 40 seconds where it might be 350m for the 45second runner and 300m for the 50 second runner?

      • Carl Valle
        Participant
        Carl Valle on #20392

        Please share what you are doing now….also could you u2u me? Are we still on for Friday?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20393

        [i]Originally posted by fluke[/i]
        Mike- do you train 400 runners (or any runners for that matter) based on hitting times in practices and not distances? Example- If you have your 50 second 400 runner and your 45 second runner, instead of having them both run intervals at 300m, would you have them run for 40 seconds where it might be 350m for the 45second runner and 300m for the 50 second runner?

        I don't work with ANY runners (100m-400m) right now unless you are considering multi-eventers runners. I just work with jumps and multi people at LSU and do technique consultation for about 8 elite throwers. I do however, think what you mentioned has some value. I would also alter up the training because even though they both might get to roughly 40 seconds without much lactate accumulation, the slower runner will have a much greater distance to run to complete the race. Consequently, I would think you would want to approach 400m training in a way that addresses the following two issues:

          [*]You want to make the runner as fast as possible so that they run as great a distance as possible in the ~40 second window thereby minimizing their time spent running in a lactic state.
          [*]Develop lactate tolerance through special endurance and other means so that the effects of lactate on the time spent running in a lactic state can be minimized.

        The ratio of time spent addressing each of these two points should be dependent on the ratio of time spent in the alactic and lactic portions of the race.

        Thoughts?

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        jjh999 on #20394

        Mike,

        The only thing I might add is that intensive tempo might be useful earlier in the training year, as high quality (technically and velocity) special endurance runs might not be as effective.

        I know that CF hates it, but I believe that it is useful and just like anything needs to be placed within the microcyles appropriately.

        🙂

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20395

        Agreed and good point. That's kind of what I was hinting at when I wrote, "special endurance and other means."

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        obrien on #20396

        Mike or Pheonix,
        What intensity do you suggest running at for SE workouts over the summer? Also should SE workouts be held under 300m or the 40sec. that some have mentioned until closer to season?

      • Carl Valle
        Participant
        Carl Valle on #20397

        Obrien,

        I am VERY stubborn on my views of lactate work being involved with both swimming and track and field. If you read the intermediate speed defense I showed how I use zones of 80%-95% to unload the CNS and work on flooding the body with LAC using short recoveries @ best effort (speed is compromised greatly). I feel that an athlete can shift his or her electrical ability if they are exposed to such tortures 3-5 times a year. When this addaptation is made the body can maintain this for an whole comp phase if formal speed endurance training is used.

        As for ratios and needs this becomes less obvious. Since many schools go from long to short from a pure perspective, this can cause havok peaking wise. While one quality is peaking, another is dropping off at the same rate. Layering your training will ensure that a balance is preserved.

        I would use more 250m runs with more reps say 4-5.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20398

        I don't think SE has to be held to under 300m, especially during the summer, likewise for the 40 sec rule. That's probably a better guideline during pre-competitive phase. Similar to Phoenix, I think 80-90% during summer is just right. I like Phoenix's 4-5 x 250m but also think workouts like 6 x 200m, 4 x 300m, or even 3 x 500m would be ok for summer.

        [i]Originally posted by Phoenix[/i]
        Obrien,

        I feel that an athlete can shift his or her electrical ability if they are exposed to such tortures 3-5 times a year. When this addaptation is made the body can maintain this for an whole comp phase if formal speed endurance training is used.

        Phoenix,
        Very interesting. Are you speaking of 3-5 workouts, microcycles, mesocycles? 3-5 times a year (if it's just workouts or even microcycles) seems like so little stimulus that it could never result in a major biochemical adaptation like that. Have you really found this to be the case or is this just a hunch? Thanks.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        400stud on #20399

        So are you saying intensive tempo work is the way to go for 400 runners in the off-season?

      • Carl Valle
        Participant
        Carl Valle on #20400

        Mike,

        This can be argued based on what physiology journals you read… Any improvement PB wise, such as flying 20s, 30m block work, standing 160m will make a gene impression. Any flooding of the lactate system will make an addaptation providing that it was higher then any other stimulus in that catagory. I have used this and feel that the improvements are clear.

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        400stud on #20401

        Should 400 runners incorporate Special Endurance workouts during the AA phase, or should we stick with Intensive Tempo workouts and maybe a little mileage?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20402

        I think intensive tempo matched with speed / acceleration development in the early season is the way to go for a 400m runner. Special endurance at this time shouldn't be completely neglected and can probably be addressed adequately during the rest week (i.e. testing on a 300m run early in the week and possibly a 450m week later in the week).

        As for AA phase, I don't think a serious athlete needs to devote too much time to it because they shouldn't ever get so far out of conditioning that a true and full AA phase is necessary. Also, the more advanced and mature the athlete, the less the need for AA because they should have already developed the underlying conditions that AA would typically be used to address.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Todd Lane on #20403

        Also, the more advanced and mature the athlete, the less the need for AA because they should have already developed the underlying conditions that AA would typically be used to address.

        I think when discussing the specifics of workouts and training, Mike's statement brings up a good point in general. We have great discussions on this board, but with age differences, training and chronological of the athletes we deal with, it is important to understand that what is good for someone of a high training age, may not be good for someone with young training age, or chronological age. development starts at a young age.

        just some thoughts.

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        400stud on #20404

        I was only thinking about going through a 4 week AA phase of just tempo runs (extensive and maybe intensive 1x/wk) and circuit training. Then I was going to do a 12-week GPP phase that eased into a specific preparaton phase where I was going to weightlift three times a week and run the other three dayse doing speed/accell. development once or twice and some intensive tempo the other day or two. Then I was thinking, based on what you said, that I would do Special I once or twice during the unloading weeks in my cycle (every 4th week). How does that sound? I am only 17, but I would like to get from my current PR's to at least a 23.0 and 50.0 next year. Would this help get me on track?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20405

        That sounds good, but I was a little unclear on your pairing of weights with running workouts…..I'd pair the heavy weights with hard sprinting workouts.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        400stud on #20406

        So even during the GPP phase I can go six days a week like in-season?

        Ex:
        Monday – Light speed/plyos/weights
        Tuesday – Ext. Tempo/GS/form work
        Wednesday- Int. Tempo/weights
        Thursday – Ext. Tempo/GS/form work
        Friday – Light speed/plyos/weights
        Saturday – Ext. Tempo/GS/weights

        When I say "light speed" I am referring to the volume of the workouts. The plyos will be heavy, but not too heavy. I was even thinking of incorporating plyos w/weights (complex training). What do you think of that? For GS I would do dips, pull ups, push ups, abs, a lot of stretching, and anything else you might want to add.

        Then, during an unloading week:

        Monday – Int. Tempo or tests/circuit weights
        Tuesday – Ext. Tempo/GS
        Wednesday – Spec. I/circuit weights
        Thursday – Same as Tues.
        Friday – Same as Mon.
        Saturday – 2-3 mile jog

        How does that look to you?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20407

        The program looks good, but my final assessment would depend on a better explanation of what "light speed" is. Also, 6 days a week sounds good in GPP to me…..that's the time of year you want the highest volume of work anyhow.

        Complex training is good but can be very hard on the CNS and you might want to reconsider doing it in GPP. This has been discussed before and Kebba has had some nice insights on it so try a search. As for GS exercises, they are only limited by your imagination and your willingness to look ridiculous doing crazy exercises.

        For the unloading week, I'd skip a workout on Saturday and do some field and / or weight room testing in addition to whatever testing you had planned on the track. You could split up the testing and do it over multiple days.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        400stud on #20408

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        The program looks good, but my final assessment would depend on a better explanation of what "light speed" is. Also, 6 days a week sounds good in GPP to me…..that's the time of year you want the highest volume of work anyhow.

        Complex training is good but can be very hard on the CNS and you might want to reconsider doing it in GPP. This has been discussed before and Kebba has had some nice insights on it so try a search. As for GS exercises, they are only limited by your imagination and your willingness to look ridiculous doing crazy exercises.

        For the unloading week, I'd skip a workout on Saturday and do some field and / or weight room testing in addition to whatever testing you had planned on the track. You could split up the testing and do it over multiple days.

        First off, thanks for your help.

        Light speed to me refers to low volume speed work, like around 200-300m. During the season my speed work can get up around 500-600m max. I don't know if that is best, but that's what I did so far and it has worked.

        When it comes to GS exercises, I am willing to do anything if you explain to me how to do it. Nobody ever said that being or even getting good is easy. I will make sure to research Kebba, though.

        Finally, I planned on testing on Mon., Fri. and now Saturday I guess. But, that is a little weird, so what about Tues./Thurs./Sat. and put tempo in between (extensive). I could use one of those test days (probably Thurs.) as a Special I day, but time myself in a longer run of like 250, or 150, or 300 or something. How does that sound?

        Training 6 days a week is what I do. I always train Mon.-Sat. because I put hard days on Mon./Wed./Fri. and ext. tempo in between, while on Sat. changing the tempo for a lot of form work (hurdle mobility, stretching, form drills, etc.). If you say it is good for GPP, how should my weeks look during the season to achieve my goals.

        Rember, I am very open-minded and curious and always willing to accept new ideas and thoughts, but they need to be advantagous to myself. I have goals for next year that I know are possible if I train properly.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20409

        I think everything you mentioned sounds fine. One thing you might want to think about is testing on consecutive days or doing multiple tests per day. For example you could run a 150m test and then go squat or clean. Either way, I wouldn't worry too much about the unloading week format.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Jay Turner on #20410

        What about a GPP training week that goes like this:

        Monday:2 x 5 x 30m from start, short recovery

        Tuesday:2 X 2 X 600 @ 65 % w/45 sec. rest b/w reps, 2 min. b/w sets

        Wednesday:4 X 200 @ 90-95% w/3 min. rest

        Thursday:8 X 200 @ 70% w/90 sec. rest

        Friday:8 X 60 @ 90% w/90 sec. rest

        Can someone critique that please?

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        400stud on #20411

        [i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
        What about a GPP training week that goes like this:

        Monday:2 x 5 x 30m from start, short recovery

        Tuesday:2 X 2 X 600 @ 65 % w/45 sec. rest b/w reps, 2 min. b/w sets

        Wednesday:4 X 200 @ 90-95% w/3 min. rest

        Thursday:8 X 200 @ 70% w/90 sec. rest

        Friday:8 X 60 @ 90% w/90 sec. rest

        Can someone critique that please?

        If I got this right you are doing Acc. Dev. on Monday, SE on Wednesday, and Short Speed on Friday? I don't know about that.

        I could say Acc. Dev. and maybe lower the intensity of the 200's a bit on Wednesday and try something like hills or something on Friday.

        To me, it's too fast too soon, but every athlete adapts differently.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20412

        I agree with 400stud in that it seems like it's too fast too soon. Having said that, I think it would make a really good setup for pre-comp or even SPP. Also, the 90 seconds rest for the Friday workout's 60m repitions is probably too short to consider that work speed development if that's what your objective was. I think if you went with 400stud's recommendations it would be a nice GPP setup.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Jay Turner on #20413

        Sorry about that guys. That Friday workout was 160s, not 60s. And it is meant to be a SE workout.

        Having said that, I also read somewhere that if you were to do some 60m repeats @ 90-95% with about 1-2 min. rest it can be considered Alactic Short Speed Endurance. Someone comment on that.

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        400stud on #20414

        Still should be 3min rest, at least. I don't know about those type of workouts.

        90s is still too short for SE in any form.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20415

        400stud-
        I agree with the recommendations on rest but I don't think 90m is too short for SE (speed endurance).

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        400stud on #20416

        Pure speed endurance, yes, but I was referring to Special Endurance, which is why I made the comment. SE starts at 150m.

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        Jay Turner on #20417

        For clarification when I say SE I am referring to speed endurance. When I say SE I/II I am referring to Spec. Endurance. Sorry if you got mixed up 400Stud.

      • Carl Valle
        Participant
        Carl Valle on #20418

        Just to update this thread…..

        improved capilary density is important…if you do if from circuits, running, or even ballet great.

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        Jay Turner on #20419

        I went back and read every post on the thread and I noticed alot of summer/off season workouts were filled with lots of intensive tempo sessions. Actually, it seems like more often than not, intensive tempo is the way to go with alot of posts. My question/comment is, I thought doing intensive tempo for more than 4 weeks becomes counter productive?

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        400stud on #20420

        That's what I thought, too, but if done properly it can probably more advantageous in some cases.

        READ: Baylor/Clyde Hart's program.

        I like Int. Tempo for base work but I'm too impatient to stick with it long term. However, it can work.

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        Jay Turner on #20421

        mike, QUIK

        Can you explain to me how to properly make an off season 400m program that is intensive tempo oriented work. I don't wanna over do it or under do it, so I'm coming to you all for advice.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20422

        How about:
        1: Int. Tempo
        2: Ext. Tempo / General Endurance Circuit
        3: Acc. Dev. / stairs/ resisted runs / short hills
        4: Same as Day 2
        5: Int. Tempo

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Jay Turner on #20423

        This is a 5 day schedule, correct?

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        400stud on #20424

        Yes

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        Jay Turner on #20425

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        How about:
        1: Int. Tempo
        2: Ext. Tempo / General Endurance Circuit
        3: Acc. Dev. / stairs/ resisted runs / short hills
        4: Same as Day 2
        5: Int. Tempo

        Working on speed to some degree year round seems the way to go. I know how you'd do it once the season starts (acc. dev. . . . MaxV. . . . Short Speed, but how do you progress the speed component in the summer and fall?

        Also, I thought doing intensive tempo for more than 4 weeks at a time becomes counterproductive?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20426

        You could address acc. dev. early on in the year in all of the ways I listed in my previous post (standard acc. dev., stairs, resisted runs, or short hills). All of these would be done with standard work:rest ratios appropriate for acceleration development. As the year progresses, you can lengthen the distance covered in the desired acc. dev. training. For example, you could start with a workout like 10 x 10m sprints with 1' rest and gradually progress to the point where you're doing something like 3 x 20m, 3 x 30m, 3 x 40m w/ 1' rest / 10m run.

        I don't think the intensive tempo would be counterproductive, especially in an off-season program and even more so if you made sure to vary the workouts.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        400stud on #20427

        How would you suggest varying the workouts for Int. Tempo, mike?

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        Jay Turner on #20428

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        You could address acc. dev. early on in the year in all of the ways I listed in my previous post (standard acc. dev., stairs, resisted runs, or short hills). All of these would be done with standard work:rest ratios appropriate for acceleration development. As the year progresses, you can lengthen the distance covered in the desired acc. dev. training. For example, you could start with a workout like 10 x 10m sprints with 1' rest and gradually progress to the point where you're doing something like 3 x 20m, 3 x 30m, 3 x 40m w/ 1' rest / 10m run.

        So if I started the off season training in Mid June, I could conceivably go from then until January doing accel. development only (no MaxV or Short Speed) and I'd be ok?

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        400stud on #20429

        Probably, as long as it was varied. Like he said, short hills, stair runs, lengthening length of reps, etc. are all acc. dev. workouts. Just change it up.

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        Jay Turner on #20430

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        Probably, as long as it was varied. Like he said, short hills, stair runs, lengthening length of reps, etc. are all acc. dev. workouts. Just change it up.

        What if every week I went in cycles (one week do hills, one week SFS, one week, stairs. etc., then start over again). Could that work?

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        400stud on #20431

        I don't think it'd work. You wouldn't really have any decent amount of time to adapt and gain from each workout since it's always changing. Do 2-4 mesocycles varying the emphasis on each.

        Acc. Dev. –> Speed
        Short Hills –> Power
        Stadiums –> Turnover

        This is what each one really accomplishes so you need to adjust accordingly.

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        Jay Turner on #20432

        So maybe something like this. . . .

        June – stairs
        July – short hills
        August – accel. development
        September – start over with stairs again
        October – short hills
        November – accel. development

        From November to maybe February just alter length of reps of accel development

        What about that setup. Thoughts?

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        400stud on #20433

        That could work, but I think personally this is the order I'd go in….

        Hills –> Stairs –> Acc. Dev.

        Start by building power, then get the feet moving and then convert everything you've developed on the track. It may be getting too specific considering it's off-season, but I kinda like that order better.

        Your acc. dev. for the first meso will be 10-20m reps, then 20-30m reps and from November-February work on 30's and 40's maybe even including some block work as well.

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        Jay Turner on #20434

        Why do you feel that may be getting too specific?

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        Jay Turner on #20435

        What about this weekly setup during summer/fall:

        Monday – Intensive Tempo, Heavy Weights (OL, Squats, Bench)
        Tuesday – Extensive Tempo, Med Ball circuit
        Wednesday – accel. development/short hills/stairs, Heavy Weights
        Thursday – same as Tuesday
        Friday – Technique day

        Thoughts?

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        400stud on #20436

        How about this:

        Monday – Acc. Dev. / Weights
        Tuesday – Tempo
        Wednesday – Technique day
        Thursday – Resisted Runs / Weights
        Friday – Tempo

        That may be getting too specific b/c it may be searching for something not there…..

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        Jay Turner on #20437

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        How about this:

        Monday – Acc. Dev. / Weights
        Tuesday – Tempo
        Wednesday – Technique day
        Thursday – Resisted Runs / Weights
        Friday – Tempo

        This looks good. But on Tuesday or Friday, can that be intensive tempo, or do they both have to be extensive? Mike, you can add to this whole conversation.

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        400stud on #20438

        If you wanted to add Int. Tempo, then I'd mix Acc. Dev. and Resisted Runs and make Int. Tempo a day in itself.

        Ex:
        Monday – Acc. Dev/Stairs/Weights
        Tuesday – Tempo
        Wednesday – Technique
        Thursday – Int. Tempo
        Friday – Tempo

        Remember tempo is supposed to be for recovery….so Int. Tempo on a "recovery" day probably wouldn't be a good idea.

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        Jay Turner on #20439

        Can you give me some examples of resisted runs?

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        400stud on #20440

        Stairs, hills, grass sprints, sand runs, running on a dirt track.

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        Jay Turner on #20441

        Are grass runs and sand runs good for accel. development, or something else?

        Also, if I were to go three days a week instead of 5, and have it look like this:

        Monday – acc. dev./stairs/short hills, weights

        Wednesday – Technique Day, weights

        Friday – Int. Tempo, weights

        No practice on Tuesday and Thursday, so no extensive tempo done during the summer, just complete rest on those days. Also, on Mon., Wed., Fri. we do heavy lifting (OL, squats, bench, etc.).

        Could this setup work? Thoughts?

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        400stud on #20442

        Grass and sand runs aren't so good for acceleration as they are for turnover and high knee running.

        The setup would work, but instead of adding acc. dev. to resisted runs on Monday, since you're not doing tempo, why not split up Monday to a Monday/Friday setup where Monday is acc. dev. and Friday is resisted runs, then put Int. Tempo on Wednesday?

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        Jay Turner on #20443

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        Grass and sand runs aren't so good for acceleration as they are for turnover and high knee running.

        The setup would work, but instead of adding acc. dev. to resisted runs on Monday, since you're not doing tempo, why not split up Monday to a Monday/Friday setup where Monday is acc. dev. and Friday is resisted runs, then put Int. Tempo on Wednesday?

        That's not quite the way I meant it. On Monday, when I said acc. dev./short hills/stairs. . . I meant one or the other, not all of them. Does that make a difference?

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        400stud on #20444

        Not really. If you're not doing tempo in b/t sessions I don't see why you can't up the ante a bit and raise intensity.

        Monday – Acc. Dev.
        Wednesday – Int. Tempo
        Friday – Hills or Stairs (you can rotate each meso if you want)

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        Jay Turner on #20445

        That setup SEEMS ok to me, but will doing this for the entire summer befoe going to 5 days a week for GPP affect me negatively (burnout due to no extensive tempo sessions)?

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        400stud on #20446

        I don't think it would as long as volumes are monitored.

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        Jay Turner on #20447

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        I don't think it would as long as volumes are monitored.

        I plan on starting low and moving up (with total volume). I'll start with something like 800-900m of total volume, eventually getting as high as 1200-1300m by summer's end. Is that a good number to work up to, or would I still be safe in going higher than 1200-1300?

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        400stud on #20448

        If that's total weekly volume I'd go higher. You could do that much volume in just the tempo sessions alone.

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        Jay Turner on #20449

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        If that's total weekly volume I'd go higher. You could do that much volume in just the tempo sessions alone.

        I meant per session. So what do you think (800-900m of total volume, eventually getting as high as 1200-1300m by summer's end)? Is that a good number to work up to, or would I still be safe in going higher than 1200-1300?

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        400stud on #20450

        For tempo 1200-1300m is probably a minimum or medium, highly unlikely the maximum.

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        Jay Turner on #20451

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        For tempo 1200-1300m is probably a minimum or medium, highly unlikely the maximum.

        Even for intensive tempo I could go much higher you think?

        Another question. . . . . what if I did some kind of accel. development on Monday, EXTENSIVE tempo on Wednesday, and Hills or Stairs on Friday (again with days off on Tuesday and Thursday). How does that look?

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        Jay Turner on #20452

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        I don't think the intensive tempo would be counterproductive, especially in an off-season program and even more so if you made sure to vary the workouts.

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        How would you suggest varying the workouts for Int. Tempo, mike?

        I'd also like to know this mike.

        I've heard from different people that when doing intensive tempo, it takes longer to recover from it than all other workouts. As a result, all workouts after that will be subpar. Thoughts mike?

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        400stud on #20453

        For Int. Tempo I think you could get as high as 2000m to be honest. I've seen it work. You just gotta make sure form stays consistent and you're still able to run at a decent speed the whole time. Hell, if you look at programs like Baylor and UW-LX, as well as Florida, too, I think, they pride their programs on Int. Tempo a lot and I know for a fact Baylor does plenty of Int. Tempo over 2000m.

        The 2nd plan you proposed looks fine, especially for just regaining fitness.

        The Int. Tempo affecting other workouts goes back to CF's theory that Int. Tempo is "too fast to recover from and too slow to be used for recovery" (or something like that).

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        Jay Turner on #20454

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        The Int. Tempo affecting other workouts goes back to CF's theory that Int. Tempo is "too fast to recover from and too slow to be used for recovery" (or something like that).

        Right, that is where I got the info from.

        How much truth is there to this? And if it is only a theory, what evidence does he have concerning this?

        I'm just really hesitant about using intensive tempo because I don't wanna burnout my athletes because of it. However, I wanna use the best means possible to build upon what we've accomplished this year.

        Thoughts?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20455

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        How would you suggest varying the workouts for Int. Tempo, mike?

        While their are general guidelines for all of the various tempo types (intensive, extensive, etc.) you can quite easily deviate from those guidelines and still accomplish the same things by manipulating the rep distance and rest interval. For example, you could potentially do more reps at a shorter distance (~80m) at intensive tempo pace but keep the rest interval relatively short due to the shorter rep length. This could be of use if you wanted to get the physiological response associated with intensive tempo, but didn't want to risk the athlete making mechanically poor foot contacts due to sloppy running at the end of a rep.

        [i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
        I've heard from different people that when doing intensive tempo, it takes longer to recover from it than all other workouts. As a result, all workouts after that will be subpar. Thoughts mike?

        I don't really agree with this, while the performance decrements caused by intensive tempo may cross the most systems (muscular, metabolic, nervous, etc.) it shouldn't really put any of them into a very deep hole. If the intensive tempo training is causing big problems, I think it's time to reconsider its volume, intensity, and placement within the training cycle.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Jay Turner on #20456

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        [quote][i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
        I've heard from different people that when doing intensive tempo, it takes longer to recover from it than all other workouts. As a result, all workouts after that will be subpar. Thoughts mike?

        I don't really agree with this, while the performance decrements caused by intensive tempo may cross the most systems (muscular, metabolic, nervous, etc.) it shouldn't really put any of them into a very deep hole. If the intensive tempo training is causing big problems, I think it's time to reconsider its volume, intensity, and placement within the training cycle. [/quote]Hence, manipulating rep distance and rest intervals to fit your needs, correct?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20457

        yep

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Jay Turner on #20458

        What about if I were to alternate what I do week to week. Could this work:

        Week 1
        Monday – accel. development

        Wednesday – INTENSIVE tempo

        Friday – hills/stairs

        Week 2
        Monday – accel. development

        Wednesday – EXTENSIVE tempo

        Friday – hills/stairs

        My thinking is I could go intensive one week, then give the body some rest (relatively speaking), and do extensive the following week. What are your thoughts on this setup? Can this work, orwould I not be able to get the full effect of the intensive tempo training?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20459

        If you're only training 3 days a week, I think option 1 is better. The benefit of intensive tempo might be lost without much foundational fitness.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Jay Turner on #20460

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        If you're only training 3 days a week, I think option 1 is better. The benefit of intensive tempo might be lost without much foundational fitness.

        I THINK I understand what you mean, but want to be sure. Could you explain what you mean when you say I won't benefit without much foundational fitness?

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        Jay Turner on #20461

        When working on pure accel. development (no hills or stairs), can you do this on grass, or does it have to be done on the track to get the benefit?

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        400stud on #20462

        Track would be ideal, but in the off-season and pre-season I don't see why you couldn't do it on grass to save their legs.

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        Jay Turner on #20463

        [i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
        [quote][i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        If you're only training 3 days a week, I think option 1 is better. The benefit of intensive tempo might be lost without much foundational fitness.

        I THINK I understand what you mean, but want to be sure. Could you explain what you mean when you say I won't benefit without much foundational fitness? [/quote]mike?

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        Jay Turner on #20464

        Why wouldn't I benefit much from the intensive tempo?

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        Jay Turner on #20465

        How does this look as a possible setup during the summer?

        Monday –
        1. dynamic warmup
        2. hurdle mobility series
        3. accel. development
        4. plyos
        5. general strength or weights

        Wednesday –
        1. dynamic warmup
        2. hurdle mobility series
        3. tempo (intensive or extensive)
        4. general strength or weights

        Friday –
        1. dynamic warmup
        2. hurdle mobility series
        3. hills or stairs
        4. plyos
        5. general strength or weights

        Thoughts?

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        Jay Turner on #20466

        Anyone still reading this?

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        400stud on #20467

        It's the same basic setup as above. It should work.

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        Jay Turner on #20468

        Yeah it is 400. But what I was asking was about each particular activity per day. Could I do each of those things on each particular day?

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        400stud on #20469

        I think yes, just know that I'm not a proponent of using plyos in the summer time. However, I have no actual evidence to prove it positive or negative to use them during this period, I just feel that since it's the summer time and you're really just trying to maintain fitness, that something as CNS-intensive as plyos shouldn't be used when you're already doing other CNS activities.

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        Jay Turner on #20470

        Well I am not sure whether they are gonna be high intensity or low intensity. Anyone else?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20471

        I think it looks fine but I'd stick to relatively (as compared to Day 2) heavy weights on Day 1 & 3 and leave general strength work for day 2.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Jay Turner on #20472

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        I think it looks fine but I'd stick to relatively (as compared to Day 2) heavy weights on Day 1 & 3 and leave general strength work for day 2.

        Well now this brings up a question posed in another topic mike.

        What kind of weights do I need to do in the summer? Do I start the program I proposed in the lifting thread I have during the summer (start in the summer, build up to 85-90%, then start from 65% again in the fall and build back up again to 85-90% by December, then same thing for indoor-outdoor season), or do I do something else for the summer, then start the lifting in the fall?

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        Jay Turner on #20473

        Hello?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20474

        Ithought I'd answered this one:?: I'd recommend starting with a relatively low intensity 70% and build it up over the course of about a month to about 80% max and then keep it in the neighborhood of 75-85% and work up to a relatively high volume. When you start fall training, you could go back to 75% and work up to 90%.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Jay Turner on #20475

        Ok thanks mike.

        Here is another option I am now considering (I'm entertaining all options as you can see). . . .

        I have been contemplating running on Tuesday and Thursday, with these sessions being speed workouts, then using Monday, Wednesday, and Friday as a lifting day ONLY (no running). Could this work? Or is this too much too soon as far as speed work is concerned? Thoughts?

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        400stud on #20476

        It's too much, Gov. CNS will not get any rest doing speed workouts in between lifting sessions. The only way I could see it working would be to make the lifting sessions circuit style (ala tempo work). Other than that, it really isn't a beneficial setup.

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        Jay Turner on #20477

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        It's too much, Gov. CNS will not get any rest doing speed workouts in between lifting sessions. The only way I could see it working would be to make the lifting sessions circuit style (ala tempo work). Other than that, it really isn't a beneficial setup.

        Interesting opinion 400. I see where you're coming from. However, this is the setup that the Cleveland Glenville boys that you always hear me talking about use during the summer. There is a personal trainer that helps them out every off season and I have seen first hand that it works. Having said that, I haven't gotten my hand on the complete setup, so I'm not sure what days things like OLs would be done. They would be done at some point though. Thoughts?

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        400stud on #20478

        Remember, what works for one may not work for another. My team I'm finishing this season off with goes 4 days a week — 4 SE or 3 SE, 1 Blocks. I've got totally burned out from these workouts yet the team has been running faster than you can imagine. Check this out…

        https://www.usatf.com/assoc/az

        Look for the Junior Olympic results under the "Track and Field" section. The team is Rising Suns…Oh yeah, and Keegan wasn't running fast at all. He only ran as fast as he needed to…he's MUCH faster.

        Now back on subject more, just because they can do it and get away with it, good for them. You don't have the complete plan so I wouldn't advise doing it, and even if you did, I still would advise against it as the trainer that they work with probably has some things different than what you would find out and possibly changes things as time goes on that you wouldn't know about.

        Final Thought — be original and do what you know works.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20479

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        It's too much, Gov. CNS will not get any rest doing speed workouts in between lifting sessions. The only way I could see it working would be to make the lifting sessions circuit style (ala tempo work). Other than that, it really isn't a beneficial setup.

        I agree with this but it could be pulled off if you didn't stick to the 5 consecutive days format. For example, If you went,
        Day 1: lift heavy
        Day 2: speed work
        Day 3: Circuit work as suggested by Eric and myself
        Day 4: off
        Day 5: lift heavy
        Day 6: speed work
        Day 7: off

        You'd obviously still need to be careful with volumes and intensities but it could certainly be done.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        400stud on #20480

        Yes, that could work, too. 😀

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        Jay Turner on #20481

        When I named the one team it worked for, that's not the only success story. The top 5 boys AND girls sprint groups in my state has went through this guy, so it's hard to argue with success. Like I told 400, I have no idea how this guy's program works. However, I have a meeting with him on Wednesday to discuss details. I'm going to hammer him with questions of my own, as well as questions that you guys have brought to my attention. After this meeting, I'll get back to the forum and let everyone know what his plan is. Thanks guys.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20482

        Sounds great. I look forward to hearing the details.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        jumpscoachmike on #20483

        Same here Gov….looking forward to the details.

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        Jay Turner on #20484

        [i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
        I think yes, just know that I'm not a proponent of using plyos in the summer time. However, I have no actual evidence to prove it positive or negative to use them during this period, I just feel that since it's the summer time and you're really just trying to maintain fitness, that something as CNS-intensive as plyos shouldn't be used when you're already doing other CNS activities.

        This is 400's opinion on plyos during the summer. What are everyone else's thoughts concerning plyos during summer?

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        jumpscoachmike on #20485

        Gov-

        My athletes (sprinters/jumpers) work plyos or multi-jumps drills 2x week in the summer. We devote one day to higher intensity drills and one day to a less intense multi-jumps circuit (still achieving some of the same goals though). This is just an example of what I do though…i'm sure there are varying opinions.

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        jumpscoachmike on #20486

        I suppose I should point out that these athletes of mine are still competing through my club team so we are still in competition mode. I may or may not look at it from eric's perspective if they weren't competing.

        What are your thoughts Gov?

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        Jay Turner on #20487

        My athletes are not competing at all during the summer. I'd like to do plyos, but I don;t want to give them too much. Thoughts?

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        Jay Turner on #20488

        [i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
        Sounds great. I look forward to hearing the details.

        Ok,

        I talked to this guy about him working with my sprinters/jumpers/hurdlers for a few months. I asked him a bunch of legitimate questions concerning his training.

        For example:

        I asked him how is it that training 5 days a week during summer with Mon., Wed., and Fri. being devoted to lifting and Tues., and Thurs. being speed days? He told me that what he does with everyone he works with is sit down and go over their plans for the season and works based off what their goals are. He told me that as far as exact details of workouts would be more clear once I start communicating with him about my training plans in the fall and during the season.

        I then asked him about my concern of them being overtrained and possible burnout. He responded by saying of the hundreds of high school, college, and pro athletes he has worked with, he has never had someone suffer from burnout. He also told me that he monitors each individuals progress from day to day, from rep to rep. If by some chance one of the athletes started to fatigue, he'd either cut some of the work or completely shut them down for that particular session, possibly even tailoring the next session. He essentially repeated that he makes a detailed plan with each athlete but he also goes off of feel with the individual.

        I reiterated my concern for CNS fatigue with speed work one day and then OL's/weight training on the next. He told me that doing both on the same day (like most track teams do) is totally natural and he COULD do that, but that because of the intensity of this program, alot of high school athletes are not able to do both in one day – therefore adding lifting in to the speed work in the same day, he did not want to risk injury. He also said that as high school athletes, most of them do not perform at a high enough intensity to cause enough CNS fatigue to not be able to run one day then lift the next. He then said having said that, he would still monitor each athletes progress.

        What do you guys think of the information he gave me? Would you all advise me going through with it? Do you agree with all, some or any of what he is saying? What is everyone's thoughts? I'm supposed to be getting back to him on Monday or Tuesday of next week with some sort of a decision so I'd appreciate everyone's help on this one.

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        jumpscoachmike on #20489

        The comment that sticks out to me the most is "he has never had someone suffer from burnout." hmmmmmm idk

        I do find his comment regarding CNS fatigue interesting…. something to think about for sure. I know with my athletes, I set up high-intensity CNS wt. workouts paired with high-intensity jumps and/or sprints workouts. Again, this would be the 'norm' I suppose. At the same time, I can see his point with a few of my athletes in this regard…I had a couple who didn't seem to handle both in the same day as well and I should have personally made an earlier call with them to change their setup.

        Gov- like you said earlier, this guy has had very good success and you've seen it first-hand in some of those athletes in your state. It might be worth a try in my opinion. What kind of issue is this from a $$$ standpoint? Does this guy charge somethin fierce for his services??

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        Jay Turner on #20490

        [i]Originally posted by jumpscoachmike[/i]
        Gov- like you said earlier, this guy has had very good success and you've seen it first-hand in some of those athletes in your state. It might be worth a try in my opinion. What kind of issue is this from a $$$ standpoint? Does this guy charge somethin fierce for his services??

        Actually he does charge something fierce – USUALLY. He normally charges $300/month per "normal" athlete and upwards of $300-$350/day for Pros. However, I know the guy so he's willing to look out for me and drop his rate all the way down to somewhere in the neighborhood of $175/month.

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        jumpscoachmike on #20491

        per athlete? will each of your athlete's need to come up with that monthly fee? If I had the opportunity as an athlete to try this out for a month, I probably would (the need to be very dedicated is obvious in this situation).

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        Jay Turner on #20492

        [i]Originally posted by jumpscoachmike[/i]
        per athlete? will each of your athlete's need to come up with that monthly fee? If I had the opportunity as an athlete to try this out for a month, I probably would (the need to be very dedicated is obvious in this situation).

        Yes per athlete. Each of my athlete's will have to come up with the fee (well their parents will). But all of my athletes are from semi- privileged families. When I say semi I mean they pay all this money to attend the school, so have SOME kind of money. Anyway, EVERY SINGLE athlete I have is highly dedicated so that's not a problem at all.

        Now you say maybe it's a good idea to try this out for a month. As they are trying this out, what are some things I should look for during this period?

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        jumpscoachmike on #20493

        Their thoughts/concerns about this particular coach you're bringing in, mainly things from a psychological/mental perspective. Just make sure they are still keyed in to what your plans are as well, as part of YOUR total program.

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        jumpscoachmike on #20494

        From a physical perspective, keep monitoring them yourself just as he says he will. The bottom line is you are their coach they have a strong comfort level with…trust already established. For the $$ they are paying, make sure he is meeting all the needs of your athletes.

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        Jay Turner on #20495

        [i]Originally posted by jumpscoachmike[/i]
        Their thoughts/concerns about this particular coach you're bringing in, mainly things from a psychological/mental perspective. Just make sure they are still keyed in to what your plans are as well, as part of YOUR total program.

        Can you elaborate on this jumps?

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        jumpscoachmike on #20496

        Gov

        just thinking about it from their perspective (possible)…

        Here's a guy who has worked with some very talented athletes prior to (Ginn & Co. ?) bringing your ladies in….if he's not used to working with younger females (which he might be idk) and training them, his strategies may not work right away. Hopefully your girls will understand that results might take some time (and in this case lots 'o $$$), probably much more than only 1 month, and thus hopefully they will not push too hard/expect too much. On the flip side, hopefully HE won't push TOO hard as well. We both know, as well as any of the other coaches who work with h.s. ladies, it's a different ballgame.

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        Jay Turner on #20497

        [i]Originally posted by jumpscoachmike[/i]
        Gov

        just thinking about it from their perspective (possible)…

        Here's a guy who has worked with some very talented athletes prior to (Ginn & Co. ?) bringing your ladies in….if he's not used to working with younger females (which he might be idk) and training them, his strategies may not work right away. Hopefully your girls will understand that results might take some time (and in this case lots 'o $$$), probably much more than only 1 month, and thus hopefully they will not push too hard/expect too much. On the flip side, hopefully HE won't push TOO hard as well. We both know, as well as any of the other coaches who work with h.s. ladies, it's a different ballgame.

        Oh yeah, you're absolutely right. That was something I defintely had on my list of "what to look for" when we go to him. Thanks jumps.

        Anyone else have any advice for me and my team as we make this comittment?

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        texas-boy on #20498

        I need someone to creat the hardest workout for the 400m that will give me the max results

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        QUIKAZHELL on #20499

        “A workout Being hard” is relative to each person.
        In getting max results it is important to work both hard and more importantly smart. Just becasue you have guys dying and throwing up along the fence doesnt mean it was a productive workout.

        With that being said I think what you mean is what would be a tough lactate tolerance workout for a quarter miler to do. Be creative. Any repetition over say 150 meters at an intensity over 80% with less than 10 mins rest should challenge you or your athletes fast/slow glycolytic energy system pretty good.

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        Daniel Andrews on #20500

        Your summer workouts depend on if you are going to competing during the summer. If you are competing, how many events do you wish to perform at your max. potential, etc.

        If you are not competing then it is easy. You work on your base, that means miles, I am not talking about distance miles of 40+ per week, but 20-25. All elite sprinters do their base work after the World Championships into the indoor season usually until their 3rd or 4th race. They keep their speed sharp by doing speed work 1-3 times every two weeks. A sprinter should be able to comfortably finish a 5k race in 21 minutes, a 400m specialist should be looking at something that is around 6:00 per mile +/- 15 seconds, their training should be around 8:00 pace, and do intervals 10×400 at 15-20 secs off 400m race pace or 15×200 at 32-37 secs. Also, if you are a 400 meter runner you have a tough choice to make in the fall if in High School, between Cross Country and Football, from personal experience Cross Country will make you a better 400 runner than Football will.

        Two things I can guarantee you if you train like I said is that the 200m and 300m intervals and repeats will not hurt as bad next season and 400m+ work won’t suck as bad, but the speed work will be a piece of cake. You’ll notice the difference.

        Another thing that helps during track season is getting outside your event every once and a while, ie open 2’s and 8’s and 4×2 and 4×8 relays.

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        Daniel Andrews on #20501

        Texas Boy:

        Hardest workout you can do is run 4×8 relay, open 800, open 400, and 4×4 relay in a weekday meet preferably one on a tuesday or wednesday.

        Another hard workout you can do is 4×8, 4×2, IM Hurdles, and 4×4 in a meet.

        The first is harder than the second, but the second is hard enough most will bonk in 4×4. Ask your coach if you are ready for it or not.

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        rice773 on #20502

        The hardest 400m workout i ever did was 5x200m w/ decreasing splits and rest e.g.

        200m in 28, 4min
        200m in 27, 3min
        200m in 26, 2min
        200m in 25, 1min
        200m in 24, pass out

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        fraek on #20503

        Rice, i like the rest on the last one 😆

      • Mike Young
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        Mike Young on #20504

        [i]Originally posted by QUIKAZHELL[/i]
        “A workout Being hard” is relative to each person.
        In getting max results it is important to work both hard and more importantly smart. Just becasue you have guys dying and throwing up along the fence doesnt mean it was a productive workout.

        AMEN to that. A common tendency is to associate sweating, pain, puking, etc. with a workout being effective. The key to an effective training program is to have goals and create a training plan complete with well organized workouts (rather than just one workout) to achieve those goals.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20505

        [i]Originally posted by danimal9[/i]A sprinter should be able to comfortably finish a 5k race in 21 minutes, a 400m specialist should be looking at something that is around 6:00 per mile +/- 15 seconds, their training should be around 8:00 pace, and do intervals 10×400 at 15-20 secs off 400m race pace or 15×200 at 32-37 secs. Also, if you are a 400 meter runner you have a tough choice to make in the fall if in High School, between Cross Country and Football, from personal experience Cross Country will make you a better 400 runner than Football will.

        I actually disagree with most of what you mentioned. I actually don’t think a 400m runner needs to be able to run anything longer than about 500m competently. While some will be able to do so, most of the better ones will not. The very traits that make an athlete a great 400m runner would preclude success at longer distance. I also think the workouts you posted look more like mile workouts than 400m workouts. While I think endurance and fitness is extremely important in the 400m, I think it should be more focused on anaerobic endurance than aerobic. Having said all that, the lower the performance level of the athlete, the more important things like aerobic conditioning will be.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Daniel Andrews on #20506

        I actually disagree with most of what you mentioned. I actually don’t think a 400m runner needs to be able to run anything longer than about 500m competently. While some will be able to do so, most of the better ones will not. The very traits that make an athlete a great 400m runner would preclude success at longer distance. I also think the workouts you posted look more like mile workouts than 400m workouts. While I think endurance and fitness is extremely important in the 400m, I think it should be more focused on anaerobic endurance than aerobic. Having said all that, the lower the performance level of the athlete, the more important things like aerobic conditioning will be.

        You missed the point of this being an offseason workout. So a 10×400 workout which is common for milers, also builds leg strength which is important in the 400. You have to realize that workouts cross over for different distances. I am stating from general experience that 400 runners usually are not fit enough to race a 400 to THEIR POTENTIAL. Disagree all you want, but your kids will not reach their potential unless they go out and condition themselves. I used to be just like you.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20507

        [i]Originally posted by danimal9[/i]
        I am stating from general experience that 400 runners usually are not fit enough to race a 400 to THEIR POTENTIAL. Disagree all you want, but your kids will not reach their potential unless they go out and condition themselves. I used to be just like you.

        While I don’t train the 400m runners at my school (LSU), I have observed and discussed at length the training methods that our sprint coaches have used and I can tell you it is nothing like what you are suggesting. In case you aren’t aware here is a small sampling of the 400m runners who’ve gone through our program in the past couple years:

          [*]Hazel Anne Regis: Olympian, multi-ime NCAA relay champ; 2nd best 2004 indoor 400m performance; PR ~ 50.2x
          [*]Nadia Davy: Olympian, multi-time NCAA relay champ: PR ~50.6x
          [*]Derrick Brew: NCAA relay champ; 400m bronze medalist and 4 x 4 gold medalist; PR ~ 44.1x
          [*]Kelly Willie: Olympic gold medalist (4×4), PR = 44.65
          [*]Alleyne Francique: NCAA champion, former collegiate indoor record holder, multi-ime NCAA relay champ; Indoor world champion, Olympian, PR = 44.87
          [*]Benny Brazell: Olympic finalist 400H; multi-time NCAA relay champ; PR = 48.05 in the 400H
          [*]Leuroy Colquhoun: Olympian 400H and 4 x 4; multi-ime NCAA relay champ; PR = 48.8x in the 400H
          [*]Pete Coley: Olympian, multi-time NCAA relay champ; PR = 44.8x
          [*]Xavier Carter: 45.6x as a freshman

        On top of that, the program more NCAA 4 x 4 men’s and women’s relay championships than I can count. The only program I can think of that can rival our 400m program is Baylor and they run a program very similar to what we did up until this year. If our kids are not running up to their potential I can’t imagine what they would run if they were!

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Daniel Andrews on #20508

        1. Then what do your runners do during late September through December? That is the offseason to most Elite College runners, and this was what my post was specifically addressing.

        2. Someone who trains at the Elite Level is not the same as a runner at the HS level or even the Elite HS level. I can guarantee that your 400 kids have put in enough endurance work throughout their lives. They can probably do a 15×200 relay workout like Baylor’s kids, most HS sprinters can’t finish a 15×200 relay workout at the tempo desired. This seems to be the audience of most of this forum. Endurance work will help them complete high volume/high intensity work with less risk for injury.

        3. Congrats on being a Tiger, but I am addressing problems with producing better HS runners. I’ll let college coaches address the problems with their athletes.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20509

        [i]Originally posted by danimal9[/i]
        1. Then what do your runners do during late September through December? That is the offseason to most Elite College runners, and this was what my post was specifically addressing.

        They used to do quite a bit of tempo work in the off-season but it has been replaced to some extent by more speed work this year. Even during previous years when there were heavy tempo workouts the large majority of their off-season work was anaerobic in nature.

        2. Someone who trains at the Elite Level is not the same as a runner at the HS level or even the Elite HS level.

        No arguement there. I even made this distinction in one of my posts above.

        I can guarantee that your 400 kids have put in enough endurance work throughout their lives.

        You may be able to guarantee it but it doesn’t mean it’s true :tumble: . I can assure you that most have never put in the type of workouts you are suggesting.

        They can probably do a 15×200 relay workout like Baylor’s kids, most HS sprinters can’t finish a 15×200 relay workout at the tempo desired. This seems to be the audience of most of this forum. Endurance work will help them complete high volume/high intensity work with less risk for injury.

        Again I won’t argue with what you’re saying here but my point is not against your principal but against the specifics. I don’t think a large amount of strictly aerobic conditioning in the form of slow running is needed for a 400m runner of any level. I’ve said many times on this forum that fitness above other factors will lead to bigger improvements in HS level 400m. I’m not by any means arguing against the need for fitness in 400m runners, just that tons of slow running isn’t the best way to do it (even in the off-season).

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Daniel Andrews on #20510

        Not advocating tons of slow running. I am not a big LSD fan even for distance guys (2+miles). What I am advocating is 1 or 2 days each week of the off season to a sustained run of 45 minutes or longer to build up LDH enzymes. Then 2 days of tempo runs for 15-30 minutes. If they continue to work on speed during this time, but before the longer runs they will be ok. I would not mind taking this discussion offline if you would like to keep the scientifc specifics from confusing the masses.

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        Todd Lane on #20511

        danimal-

        Thanks for your comments on training. Always good to see what others are doing..

        I am confused on several points that you make if you could further explain them..

        1) Could you lay out, how you get 20-25 miles a week in for your athletes?
        2) How you thematically place speed work into your weeks with so much volume being performed? What type of speed work?
        3) How do you attack other aspects of the athlete development within the realm of your training during this time? power? strength? acceleration? technique?
        4) You mention enzyme development, specifically LDH, what are your feelings on how large of a role of the 400 meter runners this plays for a 50 second 400 meter runner?

        Thanks again.

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        Daniel Andrews on #20512

        Thanks Todd,

        Remember this is offseason

        1) Junk miles, warmup and cooldowns count. But a 45 minute run should be over 5 miles, with a 1 or 2 mile warmup and cooldown that is 7 miles. If that is done 2x per week that is 14, if you have three 2 mile tempo runs with a half mile warm up and cooldown that is 23 miles total for a week. Over 5 days of running

        2) Offseason speed Training, Once every 2 weeks to maintain, if you had good speed already, if you did not have good speed one day a week is better , were you 10×50 meters flying or block starts preference is to the runner.

        3) Just running and having athletes focus on form improves technique of running. For Strength it depends on the athlete the longer runs are giving their legs enough strength for now, those who have the distance already can focus on higher rep leg presses for maximal development of leg strength. Power is achieved by cleans, squats, lunges, deadlifts. Acceleration none.

        4) LDH plays a huge role for a 50 sec runner, in terms of training it plays its most important role allowing higher volumes at higher intensities. Allowing the runner to perform 20x200m in one day coming back and replicating it the next day. Race wise the enzyme is not as important, but it will allow a runner to sustain a faster float than he or she may be used to, because stride length will not erode as fast.

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        Daniel Andrews on #20513

        Let me add this: Your 400m Potential is based on how fast you can run 200m so speed is very important. In fact, I consider how fast you can run an open 200 to be the basis for what events you should run in.

        In-season as a 400m runner only 20% of your activity should be geared for Aerobic Endurance and 80% speed oriented. Some weeks will be 30%-70% others will be 10%-90%, typically workouts will go from Quantity oriented, to Quality oriented as you approach the time you wish to peak.

        Some coaches here I believe take the specificity issue one step beyond what they should. When training someone to be a 400 runner, I am a not training them to be an 100 or 1500 runner, however they will show aspects of being good at both, but not great. I don’t focus specifically on speed or endurance, but both. Sometimes I may stress one more than the other. As for the notion that I am not maximizing either by doing both, I am happy to hear that because I am maximizing his or her 400 potential not their 100m or 1500m potential. The role of the coach at my level is to properly guide an athlete to the events they will have the most success with, the biggest problem is most fall into the 2-4-8 category in terms of what they can be succesful at. My off-season work may look like I focus on endurance, but I only want to them to be ready to handle the work required to be succesful the endurance helps a ton more than speed work ever will.

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        ecuxctf on #20514

        Hey offseason to most sprinters in college unless they are elite is the summer and they dont do much.

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        Daniel Andrews on #20515

        Did you miss the keyword ELITE in my post? Yes, offseason is longer for non elite runners in College.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20516

        [i]Originally posted by ECUXCTF[/i]
        Hey offseason to most sprinters in college unless they are elite is the summer and they dont do much.

        Agreed. Even those who are elite (at least all the ones who train her) don’t come back and run distance in the early fall. For example, after the Olympics this summer all our 400m runners came back, took about a month off, and then started slowly into a mix of tempo and short speed training. Not one did distance running.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20517

        [i]Originally posted by danimal9[/i]
        1) Junk miles, warmup and cooldowns count. But a 45 minute run should be over 5 miles, with a 1 or 2 mile warmup and cooldown that is 7 miles. If that is done 2x per week that is 14, if you have three 2 mile tempo runs with a half mile warm up and cooldown that is 23 miles total for a week. Over 5 days of running

        I know you said you are opposed to slow running but this is exactly what you are recommending here. While to a 10k guy this might be fast, for someone who is expecting to run the 400m in anything less than 60s you are basically recommending that 90+% of their training (albiet off-season) be at less 60% of race pace.

        2) Offseason speed Training, Once every 2 weeks to maintain, if you had good speed already, if you did not have good speed one day a week is better , were you 10×50 meters flying or block starts preference is to the runner.

        Both research and anecdotal evidence indicates that the high volume of aerobic endurance training you are advocating will have a large interference effect on speed development and even maintenance.

        3) Just running and having athletes focus on form improves technique of running. For Strength it depends on the athlete the longer runs are giving their legs enough strength for now, those who have the distance already can focus on higher rep leg presses for maximal development of leg strength. Power is achieved by cleans, squats, lunges, deadlifts. Acceleration none.

        I believe you are misusing the term strength. Long runs will not develop leg strength of any kind. Long runs develop endurance. Unless your definition is somehow different than “the ability to produce maximal force output” there is no way 45 minute runs are going to develop strength.

        4) LDH plays a huge role for a 50 sec runner, in terms of training it plays its most important role allowing higher volumes at higher intensities. Allowing the runner to perform 20x200m in one day coming back and replicating it the next day. Race wise the enzyme is not as important, but it will allow a runner to sustain a faster float than he or she may be used to, because stride length will not erode as fast.

        While LDH is indeed important I’ve never seen anything indicating that it is a primary limiting factor in either sprint training or overall sprint performance. If you can provide any support for this believe please let us know.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20518

        Danimal9-
        I am unaware of any successful 400m training program (or even single 400m runner for that matter) who has used so much slow distance running to develop championship level 400m runners. From what I am aware, both anecdotal (from champion 400m runners) and experimental (from physiological research) would indicate that their are better ways to train a long sprinter than the way you recommend. What evidence can you provide to support your training methods.

        NB- Citing 51s quarter milers, even at the HS level doesn’t count as top level unless you are talking about women ;).

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Daniel Andrews on #20519

        Mike:

        I certainly respect your knowledge and education, but I believe you are over simplifying the dynamics of running. All running requires speed. Let me use high school runners as a case in point. Most boys HS state champions run 10.5 for 100m, 20.5-21.0 for 200, 47 for 400, 1:50 for 800, and 4:10 for 1600 (I know some states are 1500m but I am using the eqiv. here).

        Let’s look at the 200m pace for 400+

        23.5 for 400
        27.5 for 800
        31.5 for 1600

        Do you see a trend here? I do, you have to be able to run 21.5 seconds for 200m which would put you into most 200m finals in HS boys state meets if you want to win the 400 or 800. While as a 1600m runner you may only need 23.5 second 200 speed, but still that is above-average 200 speed for HS boys. I know you have research, but that research has 1 flaw, it measures acute adjustments not chronic adjustments of mileage on the runners. Since you seem to be a PhD candidate @ LSU I need not remind you of John Holloszy’s work. It is the long term effects that I want the runners to retain. Here is the problem, when I say 45 minute run I don’t mean JOG, I mean run until it hurts and keep pushing. There are no shortcuts in wanting to becoming a great to elite runner, it takes time, patience, and perseverance. Why do you think Americans have had to wait so long for the next Johnny Gray @ 800m?

        Leg Strength = hardening of muscles and bones to take the demands of work required. However, I will point out that it is flawed to think you cannot attain muscular strength from 45 minute runs. I still leg press over 1000lbs 6-8 times when I start my transistion from base to early-season work and that is to run local 5k’s. I do this primarily because I do not want to squat 500lbs 6-8 times. However, I get there by augmenting my running with doing 30-40 reps of 335-450 pounds once a week during base phase concentrating on total work (ie tw = reps x weight) .

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        Todd Lane on #20520

        [i]Originally posted by danimal9[/i]

        3) Just running and having athletes focus on form improves technique of running. For Strength it depends on the athlete the longer runs are giving their legs enough strength for now, those who have the distance already can focus on higher rep leg presses for maximal development of leg strength. Power is achieved by cleans, squats, lunges, deadlifts. Acceleration none.

        4) LDH plays a huge role for a 50 sec runner, in terms of training it plays its most important role allowing higher volumes at higher intensities. Allowing the runner to perform 20x200m in one day coming back and replicating it the next day. Race wise the enzyme is not as important, but it will allow a runner to sustain a faster float than he or she may be used to, because stride length will not erode as fast.

        A few more questions from the above:

        I’m not quite following you. Are you saying that a high rep program where maximal forces cannot be exerted because of the high reps, develops maximal strength?

        I’ve always address length as a product of force into the ground and returned.

        Where I am confused is how an improvement in LDH can sustain higher volumes and intensities at the same time. Aren’t the two in an inverted relationship?

        danimal- Could you post a sample week of in-season training for a group of your athletes? Also for the 20 x 200 you talk about, what are rest intervals and intensity of runs in terms of percentage of best?

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        Daniel Andrews on #20521

        They can’t do 20×200, but 12×200 is the highest volume of work we have done. The pace is about 80% of 400 time for some it was 85%.

        LDH gives you higher LA capacity, which allows you to work at higher intensities and thus allowing you to work on tolerance at higher levels of LA.

        Other enzymes as well play a role, but the more LA you can convert to pyruvate then less LA you have to start each repitition with. Also, it allows for faster transition in phases from Quantity to Quality.

        300-100 long controlled accelleration run followed by walk repeats, decision is made to either work the straights or turns. I am big at working on turns. The time usually ends up about 5 secs off 400 pace. Anything slower than that is of little benefit

        4-6 reps of these, early season you make em do 10, but late season they have to be fast so if they do 2 at race pace or faster back off. These usually require the next day to be fast but loose doing relay work etc.

        200 intervals(early season) repeats (late season)

        Here early is season is all about quantity, how many can you do at 80% with your rest being only that of what it takes 4 others to complete their turn. Often do them in relays. Once times start to drop, and motivation cannot keep time the workout is over usually around 12.

        late season 4-8 target is race pace for 400m or first lap of 800. complete rest in between.

        10×100 at race pace 200 or faster 400, rest is not complete, but not interval type either it is a walk back down to the other end of the track.

        Starts and turns 2 days a week of varying distances from 20 to 80m.

        400 repeats at 80%-90% with complete rest 4-6.

        I reserve longer than 400 workouts for weekday meets to maximize the speed of longer than 400 runs. I have maybe 2 kids who are good enough to run 600 all out remotely close to their 8000 race pace.

        Drills we emphasize every thing, but my favorite is high knees 10 yards into full stride float for 50 yards. One thing I haven’t done this year, but have in years past is Lunge the grass infield 100 yards push down and pulling coming back. Boys are better at handling this than girls are.

        Aqua jogging and shallow water running are key workouts I use for poor weather condition days.

        1/2 mile warmup, stretching, agilities(forms), 1 lap to loosen up before each workout.

        So a sample for this week is

        Monday
        4 x 200
        2 x 300
        2 x 400 for 4/8 runners or Blocks for 2/4 runners

        Tuesday
        Pool

        Wednesday
        2×400

        6×300
        or
        8 x 200

        Or

        2/4’s do

        Blocks
        10×100

        Thursday

        2 x 300
        2 x 200
        relay/block work

        Friday
        Race

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20522

        [i]Originally posted by danimal9[/i]
        All running requires speed. Let me use high school runners as a case in point. Most boys HS state champions run 10.5 for 100m, 20.5-21.0 for 200, 47 for 400, 1:50 for 800, and 4:10 for 1600 (I know some states are 1500m but I am using the eqiv. here).

        Let’s look at the 200m pace for 400+

        23.5 for 400
        27.5 for 800
        31.5 for 1600

        Do you see a trend here? I do, you have to be able to run 21.5 seconds for 200m which would put you into most 200m finals in HS boys state meets if you want to win the 400 or 800. While as a 1600m runner you may only need 23.5 second 200 speed, but still that is above-average 200 speed for HS boys.

        I didn’t coach HS track for all that long but most of the top distance guys I saw didn’t have that type of speed. In fact, many of the top U.S. distance runners admittedly do not have better than 56s 400m speed. Also, you again have the methodological flaw (which I discussed HERE) that you are assuming that any given individual can run relatively equally across all performances given the correct training.

        I know you have research, but that research has 1 flaw, it measures acute adjustments not chronic adjustments of mileage on the runners. Since you seem to be a PhD candidate @ LSU I need not remind you of John Holloszy’s work.

        Actually I’m not very familiar with it. While my undergraduate degree is in exercise physiology my doctoral studies are in biomechanics and I’m not as familiar with physiological research (other than muscle physiology). Can you please expand.

        It is the long term effects that I want the runners to retain. Here is the problem, when I say 45 minute run I don’t mean JOG, I mean run until it hurts and keep pushing.

        A 45 minute run to a 400m runner is the equivalent of a 4 hour LSD run to a marathoner. It’s all relative to the event they will competing in. Even if they were somehow able to blast through 45 minutes at 5 minute per mile pace (which I think we’d both agree is highly unlikely) they would still be running considerably slower than they will ever run in a race. Five minute mile pace is equivalent to 75s / 400m. This is about 20 seconds / 400m slower than a respectable HS 400m. Surely you can see that even if they were able to somehow do their long run at that pace it is still very slow relative to their event.

        There are no shortcuts in wanting to becoming a great to elite runner, it takes time, patience, and perseverance. Why do you think Americans have had to wait so long for the next Johnny Gray @ 800m?

        No arguments on any of the above, but we’re talking about 400m here and you’re giving an 800m guy as your example. The training you advocate might be appropriate for an 800m guy but I don’t think it would be anywhere near the best option for training 400m runners.

        Leg Strength = hardening of muscles and bones to take the demands of work required.

        Please note that this is your personal definition and not anything that is widely accepted. The “textbook” definition of strength defines it as the capacity to produce maximal force output. There is no way long runs will enhance strength (other than perhaps in sedentary individuals) if we use this definition. In fact, aerobic endurance activity has been shown to actually have a negative affect and interfere with maximal strength gains when combined with a resistance training program.

        However, I will point out that it is flawed to think you cannot attain muscular strength from 45 minute runs.

        Maybe by your definition but not by anyone else’s. Their is a TON of research on the negative effect of concurrent strength and endurance activity. This research shows that while it’s possible to make gains in both, maximal results will be compromised.

        I still leg press over 1000lbs 6-8 times when I start my transistion from base to early-season work and that is to run local 5k’s. I do this primarily because I do not want to squat 500lbs 6-8 times. However, I get there by augmenting my running with doing 30-40 reps of 335-450 pounds once a week during base phase concentrating on total work (ie tw = reps x weight) .

        That’s quite good but you are giving me a sample of one against an overwhelming amount of research and anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Todd Lane on #20523

        [i]Originally posted by danimal9[/i]

        So a sample for this week is

        Monday
        4 x 200
        2 x 300
        2 x 400 for 4/8 runners or Blocks for 2/4 runners

        Tuesday
        Pool

        Wednesday
        2×400

        6×300
        or
        8 x 200

        Or

        2/4’s do

        Blocks
        10×100

        Thursday

        2 x 300
        2 x 200
        relay/block work

        Friday
        Race

        Earlier you had stated that during comp season there was a much higher percentage of speed work. I see no speed work in your week though?

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        Daniel Andrews on #20524

        Then you are a fool. It is not acceleration work, but these are done at race pace or faster for 400. It’s about learning to relax. You guys have your own and I have mine.

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        Daniel Andrews on #20525

        To make things perfectly clear:

        30-40-50-60 x 3 speed/accel ladder is something my team had a harder time recovering from and completing earlier this season.

        The time between each rep was 1.5 to 2 minutes rest and 5 between each set.

        Right now, I can’t spend time increasing time in 100 by .1 secs with most only having 3 weeks left in their season. It’s all about going out reaching max V and relaxing within the first 100 thru the 2nd turn. That is where you get time to drop in 400’s.

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        Todd Lane on #20526

        Fool, maybe, the jury is still out.

        What we do have is a difference in terminology, definitions, and then applications of based on those differences in terminology apparently.

        Your references to speed, strength, power and such are different than how I and not to speak for Mike, but I guess he would also, would define and apply these terms. For example the workout you refer to above— 20-30-40, etc, you define as speed, I would define as speed endurance.

        Not right or wrong, just different terminology and application of definitions.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20527

        I agree with Todd (who I can assure you is anything but a fool). A good analogy for what’s going on here is that you have come to France speaking Spanish and expecting us to know what you’re talking about. Half of the debates we are having are due to your terminology. So while our terminology may or may not be “correct” it is for the most part the standard recognized terminology as used by USATF coaches education, NSCA, ACSM, among other health and sport performance governing bodies. While you are free to call things whatever you like it makes communication very difficult when the terms you use are very different from the standard and commonly accepted terminology.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Daniel Andrews on #20528

        I don’t know but speed is distance over time. acceleration is distance over time squared. Speed work to me is anything that produces a time that is race pace or faster. Bungees, plyos, treadmill overspeed, etc.. i consider drills for motor learning not actual speed work. Power is a measurement derived from acceleration it is the rate at which work is being done. Work is weight over distance, or the case of weights it is weight times number of reps.

        How in the world is a 20m thru 50m sprint considered speed endurance?

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        Daniel Andrews on #20529

        Guys:

        I am sorry, right now I am frustrated that my 100-200 girls run 14 and 30 seconds for 100 and 200. All year it has been complaint after complaint. They did the speed ladder again out of blocks 30m thru 60m this time and all I had was complaints about shins and knees. So I took them to the pool today. The worst part is they think they have been succesful. 30 seconds in 200m is what I made my best middle school girls on my middle school XC team do 4 times the day before a meet.

        regards.

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        ecuxctf on #20530

        yeah about offseason im late on this reply but at ECU coach carson says all you need to do is come back and be able to run a 100 in 15 secs . First couple weeks to a month is In and Outs in 15 sec tempo. Weights off course too

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        ecuxctf on #20531

        Well anyways about the kids with shins problems. What type of track do you have and plus how tight is the calf muscles. Usually when calf muscle is tight shins can become a problem. Also do they jump and sprint. How often do you have them jumping. I find my jumper/sprinters half more shin problems than just sprinters. Its the force put on the jumping leg and landing that really bothers them i think. I might be wrong. If they are haveing shin problems lay off blocks a bit and do flying 30’s and 60’s. Still working same stuff. This point in the season anyway

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        Daniel Andrews on #20532

        poly track, not great quality, but not exactly bad either. The problem is they are not tough enough. They whine and complain, they think they look cool walking around with ice saran wrapped around their shins. The ones who jump don’t complain.

        It is just an excuse, they whine hard enough they get to go to the pool, I punished them in the pool today though. Working on arm action, knee drive, and turnover. This is my first year with these girls. I am working on getting all the first year runners out for a summer/winter club I volunteer for.

        Another problem is we have not raced in 2 weeks. So although they could race to new season bests, they may have lost a little of that competitive edge you need. So if we hit all of our meets without a cancellation we will be peaking at the right time I think, but another cancellation will kill us.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20533

        [i]Originally posted by danimal9[/i]
        I don’t know but speed is distance over time. acceleration is distance over time squared.

        All correct. But we were talking about speed work for a sprinter. By most sources (NCSA, USATF, USTCA, etc.) this would consist of sprints of less than 150m at maximal intensity.

        Speed work to me is anything that produces a time that is race pace or faster.

        Your definition is much more broad than ours. I’m going to go out on a limb and say you have a distance running background. Both your terminology and your training regimens reflect it.

        By our definition (which actually isn’t ours it’s the accepted langauge of sprint training) what you are describing could be classified as any number of things: acceleration development, maxV development, short speed endurance, speed endurance, special endurance 1 or special endurance 2 depending on how the workout is performed. Typically only acceleration development, maxV development, and short speed endurance would be considered true “speed work” in this terminology scheme.

        How in the world is a 20m thru 50m sprint considered speed endurance?

        This would be classified as short speed endurance because of the incomplete rest interval you listed and the fact that maximal velocity can only be maintained for about 1s or 10m. Because of the latter point, attempting to run at maximal speed for anything beyond 40-50m (30-40m to get to top speed + 10m of running at top speed) is actually working on speed (in this case short speed) endurance or the ability to sustain maximal speed.

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20534

        [i]Originally posted by ECUXCTF[/i]
        yeah about offseason im late on this reply but at ECU coach carson says all you need to do is come back and be able to run a 100 in 15 secs . First couple weeks to a month is In and Outs in 15 sec tempo. Weights off course too

        Well jeez, this is probably why Lashawn Merritt could only run a 45 second indoor 400m this year.

        On a related note, I’d love to see what he does. Could start a new thread an lay out an example training plan from Coach Carter.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        Daniel Andrews on #20535

        Mike:

        In some respects you are right, I started off as a distance runner. I later changed to running sprints aided by a decent sprint coach in open meets during my time in the Marine Corps, he told me that I probably would never be any better than a local or regional 5k race winner after he watched me falter in trying to break the 3 hour marathon mark. Maybe he just worked me different because of my background. I spent 8 months developing sprinting form, weightlifting changed from powerlifting to strength to burn out sessions (30+ reps) periodically, tons of plyos, we did this same 30-60m session once a week, along with 12x60m every 5 minutes. It worked wonders it took me from around 11.5 in 100 to way under 11 and 4.5 40yrd. He told me not to worry about my endurance because it was unlikely I would ever lose it. To some extent he has been right, but my speed has only suffered when my sprinting form is gone, but after a few fitness workouts 400-300-200-100 x3 in 30 minutes and a couple of long runs, I go right into hill work for about 2 weeks, then I hit the track working on keeping the arms forward and not in and start running low 11’s and 23’s. Then my body tells me after about 9-12 weeks to start shutting it down. I am open to any advice, but I do know the things that worked for me.

        but I cannot see how 90 seconds is a short rest interval for 30m of work. To some extent I can see your point, but creatine phosphate stores should be able to replinish themselves within a minute.

        I realize all that you say about max V is very true, I love racing cars and bycyclists on city streets during some of my fitness runs. I did this all the time from Fat Harry’s to Peniston St. when I lived in New Orleans.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20536

        [i]Originally posted by danimal9[/i]
        but I cannot see how 90 seconds is a short rest interval for 30m of work. To some extent I can see your point, but creatine phosphate stores should be able to replinish themselves within a minute.

        For me personally, 90s is on the fringe of not being enough rest for 30m. I prefer to err on the conservative side. Typically to be safe I use the general guideline of 45-60s rest for every 10m of all-out sprinting with speed rather than endurance as the focus (i.e. when working on speed through acceleration development, maxV development or even short speed endurance). I do this to ensure fatigue is not an issue whatsoever and athletes are able to perform at maximal levels for the whole workout. If things are planned right, their should be virtually no drop off in performance from the first rep to the last.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        ecuxctf on #20537

        Carson has a wierd view on 400 meter. Alot of stuff he does he stole from Baylor but he puts his little twist on it I think. I remember his thinking though for racing the 400 was run 300 meters all out and try to hold on the last 100. Thats why you will never see a ECU quarter miler catch someone the last 100 meters. Course he might have changed that thinking with Merritt He has mellowed alot this year. But relays are his thing. Thats what he loves.

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        Daniel Andrews on #20538

        The last 100 is about not fading as much as everyone else.

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        800prince on #20539

        http://www.gillathletics.com/articles/400mtraining.pdf

        Danimal, I highly recommend you read this. It will give you a better understanding of the demands of the 400m, and proper terminology for durther discussion.

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        Participant
        Daniel Andrews on #20540

        Thanks prince, i have already read the article before. I disagree with some of it, but that is another matter. My approach has worked well. Other people have attained results doing different methods, but we all take a similiar approach. We all shift from quantity to quality, focusing on getting faster, and from a terminology standpoint I could care less. My science background while not “accredited” is quite on par with the best scientists in the world (my chance to be arrogant), I don’t have the world class facilities or equipment to do measurements. I do have the ability to make craziest things you’ve ever heard of work. Right now I am honing my skills as a short sprint coach.

        The USATF has done well in creating world class sprinters, but above 800 meters they have failed miserably. I am not the answer, because I am still learning and don’t consider myself a great distance coach. In time I may make a decent coach of 800 & 1500m. The USATF does have facilities however, the USOC does as well, and so do about 45 universities, and about 30 research hospitals. What I would propose to them would be ridiculed as Cerutty-like, but where are their results? Why are the Kenyans so good? They run themselves into the dirt. Take a look at how we pamper ourselves and you’ll find the problem.

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        800prince on #20541

        No mention of 25 mile weeks?

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        Participant
        Daniel Andrews on #20542

        I edited my post. I decided I wanted to add more.

        As for the 25 mile week, that is about off-season. Something this paper never specifically addresses. I also stated the 25 miles is for someone who is lacking in the endurance part.

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        800prince on #20543

        Tim Broe’s my homie, USATF has not failed miserably at producing distance runners, he’s a good example. The East and North are simply out of this world. It is a little egotistical of us to blame America’s training system for their dominance.

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        Participant
        Daniel Andrews on #20544

        Broe, Webb, and Dan Brown are our only home grown distance studs. The rest are imports. I like what Salazar is trying to do in Oregon, but still we lag at 800 and 1500 meters, Johnny Gray and Bobby Kennedy types seem to be a dying breed. Anyday of the week Kenya and other countries can trot out 5-10 truly world class competitors at each of these distances from 800 and above. We can only really get one and I don’t think we have the people to go under 1:45 for 800 yet. The blame for this is on several different levels.

        1. Training
        2. Too many races while still young (burnout).
        3. Attitude

        I got a 4th but cannot post it here for ethicals reasons. It has to do with what Pre and Shorter used to do in the spare time.

      • Avatar
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        Daniel Andrews on #20545

        We are getting a bit off topic here. To keep it short and sweet I say a 400 runner should work on endurance in the offseason if they lack the adequate endurance to finish the race hard.

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        800prince on #20546

        Alright, and there are much better and economical ways for a 400m runner to gain the necessary endurance than doing mileage. They need anaerobic endurance and general fitness, not aerobic endurance. Long steady runs will do nothing for a 400m runner. There are no elite 400m specialists that put in anywhere near the mileage you suggest. There are no great coaches that recommmend that type of mileage, even in the offseason.

        If you’re looking for a 1:45 runner, look no further than my avatar. I have my money on Zach Glavash from IVC, now a sophomore at U of I getting there someday. I’ve seen him race many times and he has it.

      • Avatar
        Participant
        Daniel Andrews on #20547

        I disagree about the 400 runner part. I am not going to change anyone’s mind and they are not going to change mine. Granted I am not a great coach, but I haven’t gone wrong yet. I helped develop 2 400’s runners last year at State Finals level for Jr. High as well as 2 others who broke 58 seconds in 8th grade, one was a state finalist in the 800, they broke their school record for 4×4 relay. This year I have helped develop a decent HS girl who runs both 400 and 800 extremely well. I have another girl who has been on pace to qualify for the 800 by time. Their 4×4 team is sitting at 4:15, not a great time, but a very respectable time for a school the size I coach at. 3 of the 4 girls ran XC, those 3 were the top 3 girls on the XC team. The fastest boy on the boys team 200-3200 was an all-state XC runner he is running a 400 in 50.8 now. From this I cannot conclude that XC or that 25 miles a week in the fall would hurt the development of a 400 runner.

        Elite 400m runners do not need the endurance part, they gained it somewhere in their lives. Not even college bound runners need the miles. Once someone gains endurance, losing it is hard to do if you are still quite active and an Elite 400 runner would be quite active. I have stressed this many times.

        Someday is the key word. I do expect a couple guys to come close to 1:45 from colleges. Glavash showed promise indoors, but how many more can we get? We haven’t done that well in the IAAF World Cup.

        Team USA at the IAAF World Cup

        Year Location Men Women
        1977 Dusseldorf, GER 2nd 4th
        1979 Montreal, CAN 1st 4th
        1981 Rome, ITA 3rd 4th
        1985 Canberra, AUS 1st 5th
        1989 Barcelona, ESP 1st 5th
        1992 Havana, CUB 5th 4th
        1994 London, ENG 6th 8th
        1998 Johannesburg, RSA 5th 1st
        2002 Madrid, ESP 2nd 4th

        taken from usatf.org without permission of course.

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        sprinterl on #20548

        [i]Originally posted by Phoenix[/i]
        Obrien,

        I am VERY stubborn on my views of lactate work being involved with both swimming and track and field. If you read the intermediate speed defense I showed how I use zones of 80%-95% to unload the CNS and work on flooding the body with LAC using short recoveries @ best effort (speed is compromised greatly). I feel that an athlete can shift his or her electrical ability if they are exposed to such tortures 3-5 times a year. When this addaptation is made the body can maintain this for an whole comp phase if formal speed endurance training is used.

        Where can I find this intermediate speed defense?
        Thanks

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20549

        [i]Originally posted by sprinterl[/i]
        Where can I find this intermediate speed defense?
        Thanks

        I’m not positive but you might want to check his site: https://www.regenerationlab.com

        ELITETRACK Founder

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20550

        Editors Note: I removed some posts from this thread and moved them here:

        https://elitetrack.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2926

        Please keep threads on topic. If someone posts content that is unfit for the thread topic please respond by asking them to start another thread rather than answering their off-topic question. Thanks.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        mjs012 on #20551

        I read all of this stuff and found it all quite valuable. Can anyone suggest a program for a masters level athlete just getting back into the sport at age 35. Although completely untrained I can run a 200 around 28 sec and a 400 at 62 sec. Please keep in mind that i haven't sprinted in about 17 years. I had forgotten how much fun it is. When i was in high school, I had poor coaching and we really just ran as fast as we could everyday.I am not sure how to pull of the elements together to target a a cuople of indor races this winter and a few in the spring.
        I think i really need to fucus on GPP, acellaration, range of motion, flexibility, and technique. I believe if I train correctly , I have alot of potential as a master's level athelte.
        Thanks for the help

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        Daniel Andrews on #20552

        At the Master's level, it is not as much about potential as it is about quality training time.  Most in 30-40 age range are at an age when recovery from hard work is easier than they were at age 17-18.  However if they ran competitively up until the age of 30, they find the recovery needed is slightly longer than they needed in their mid 20's.

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        mjs012 on #20553

        fortunately i didn't run much in my twenties, so maybe recovery time will be an advantage. Actually i have been free of leg injuries all my life until recently. Just don't know how to proceed from here

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        Daniel Andrews on #20554

        Start out with 1-2 medium hard days a week and surround them with active rest days.  Then move them to 3-4 medium hard days if you can then back off the final 3-4 weeks, to get consistent quality work each time out.

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        mjs012 on #20555

        thanks for replying. i appreciate your input
        take cae. i'll let you know how it goes

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #20556

        fortunately i didn't run much in my twenties, so maybe recovery time will be an advantage. Actually i have been free of leg injuries all my life until recently. Just don't know how to proceed from here

        I doubt recovery time will be an advantage. What you will benefit from is less wear and tear on your body though than someone who had been training hard the whole time.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        mjs012 on #20557

        that is a good point. i didn't think of it quite that way

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        lift4speed on #90955

        i was just reading over this and figured i could post. What does everyone think of Latif Thomas’ 12 week 400m program that he has on athletesacceleration.com?

        Has anyone seen this?

        Heres the link: https://www.athletesacceleration.com/blog/2009/08/24/steal-my-400m-program-week-1/

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        SpeedandGrace1975 on #114693

        Here’s an early season week for my High Schoolers. Workout paces are modified based on PR’s and Goals for the year. If at anytime once we start meets the performance exceeds the goal we then use that to base our %s. The workouts stay the same for three weeks and the 4th week is a recovery type week as we cut back on the total volume, before going into our next 4 week cycle.

        Day Date 400m Training Session
        Mon 9-Jan 10×200; 70-75% relay style approx. 2-3 min rest
        Tue 10-Jan Plyo Series 1; 4×20, 4×30, 4×40- focus; accel-smooth & fast
        Wed 11-Jan 5×300; 80% 5 min rest

        Thru 12-Jan Plyo Series 2; 6×150 hill runs focus; smoothly accel up the hill.
        Fri 13-Jan 100, 200, 300, 400, 500; 70-75% walk what ran for rest
        Sat 14-Jan Active Rest

        Week 4
        Mon 30-Jan 5×300; 70% approx. 3 min rest
        Tue 31-Jan Plyo Series 1; 4×20, 3×30, 2×40, 1×50; accel-smooth & fast
        Wed 1-Feb 2×450 80% pace through 400; relaxed push last 50; 5 min. rest
        Thru 2-Feb Relays/Jumps/Hurdles work

        Fri 3-Feb Testing: 1×350; race pace

        Sat 4-Feb Active Rest

        I’m young in the coaching profession so any input or constructive correction is always welcome.

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        Mccabe on #114696

        All of it seems ok, although the week 4 you said was a rest week could still be pretty tough. A fast 350 can take a lot out of you, especially on top of over distance work and plyos. I’d probably swap the ladder session on a Friday to a Monday for the 10×200.

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