200/400 for over 40’s

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        john-c-s on #11638

        There was a thread that was meant to have been moved here but got lost in cyber space re 400m for  a 41 year old.

        So what how would set up a plan for someone in their early to mid 40's for 200 & 400?

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #52007

        I'd do it the same as for a younger athlete but I'd decrease the frequency of high-intensity days to 2 a week. Overall volume could likely stay the same for a well-trained athlete.

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        john-c-s on #52008

        What about during GPP phase? 2 x full body w/outs pw?

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        wizlon on #52009

        Have a read of the following article:

        https://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=251run2

        It's not sport specific (especially the IBUR routione), but it might be worth using as a basis for a GPP cycle.  I'm 46, and have used this method.

        WiZ

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        john-c-s on #52010

        Great minds think alike as I was thinking about that article the other day.  :smilegrin:
        Personally I think IBUR and 400s as outlined are more suitable as tempo. That said I may use IBUR as intensive tempo.

      • Mike Young
        Keymaster
        Mike Young on #52011

        The problem with IBUR for intensive tempo is that to keep the same intensity throughout the workout almost certainly requires the athlete to run faster than intensive tempo intensity because as fatigue increases so does demand (distance required to run).

        ELITETRACK Founder

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        wizlon on #52012

        Mike:

        I don't fully understand what you mean by intensive tempo (but I'm not a track athlete, just an old guy staying in shape).

        I have however wondered whether IBUR would be better being the other way around – i.e. starting with a long run (and long rest) and working down to shorter runs/rests; or even increasing the ratio of run:rest period, to try to minimize the effects of fatigue.  I certainly do go along with your comments on the fatigue increasing and thus making it more difficult to maintain a consistently high speed.  Up till now, I have just accepted that and not changed the program (on the basis that I don't really know what I'm doing).

        Can you spare me a few brain-ergs and summarize what you think the pro's and cons of both ways are – IBUR and ISDR (i.e. interval slow-down running, or whatever it should be called)?

        WiZ

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        john-c-s on #52013

        LOL I read Mikes post then thought hmmm well what if it is reversed? then read Wizlon's post.

        Wizlon, give Masters track a go. Like you I was just someone who ran to keep in shape till this year and have just completed my first ever season of track and loved it.

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        wizlon on #52014

        Well John, they say "great minds think alike", but maybe in our case it's the alternate version of "fools never differ" 🙂

        I'm off to find out what the heck "Masters Track" is (because I've never heard of it before)…I know it will be defined somwehere. 🙂

        WiZ

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        john-c-s on #52015

        By Masters track I simply meant races for us oldies.

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        wizlon on #52016

        Yup, I found it.  Probably way out of my league (I haven't measured my times, and I know personal measurements are less reliable).  I am interested to the extent that when it warms up a little, I'll do some prep work and maybe measure my 100/200 and 400 times, just to see if I am the slowest slug on the planet, or whether there's some hope. :-)  Thanks for the tip.

        Have you (or anyone) had any more thoughts on "IBDR" – i.e. reducing intervals/rest periods rather than increaseing them for a session?  I have found nothing about that posted anywhere, which is curious.

        I may just try it anyway out for my next session (another way of mixing it up as far as I'm concerned), just to see how it "feels".

        WiZ

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        john-c-s on #52017

        Yup, I found it.  Probably way out of my league (I haven't measured my times, and I know personal measurements are less reliable).  I am interested to the extent that when it warms up a little, I'll do some prep work and maybe measure my 100/200 and 400 times, just to see if I am the slowest slug on the planet, or whether there's some hope. 🙂  Thanks for the tip.

        Wiz,
        don't be put off too easy. Like you I was reluctant and am in no way fast (100 = 13.48, 200 = 28.22, 400 = 65.87). I raced a few times at club meets here against the whipper snappers (some as young as 13) and got my ass well and truly kicked but didn't realise how much I missed simply being in a competitive environment.  I did a couple of Masters meets and really enjoyed them most were around my times, some faster and some slower but at the end of the day it was simply fun 🙂

        I did a tempo session the other night using IBUR related times but transferred it to a distance and only rested 60 seconds between so it went 350, 300, 250, 200, 150, 100. It was ok and I may use it from time to time as for a change. I will be interested on your feedback using a more intense IBDR protocol.

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        wizlon on #52018

        Hi John:

        My best time on 400m (self-recorded, so it's got to be iffy) is just under 70 seconds, but I wasn't actually trying to get one fast lap – it was one of a series of half a dozen or so, so there was some kinda sorta pacing in there (but not much).  I can't recall my 100m time, probably around 15 or so.  I'm not a million miles off then – maybe I can indeed have some fun too! 🙂

        It's starting to warm-up a bit here in TN, so maybe this weekend I can go to the local track and get myself a "new-season" starting point for time (self timed again, but it's either that or nothing). 🙂

        I'll try to sneak a IBDR session in before hand (possibly later tonight) – I'll run hard and fast, but it won't be measured distance wise, I'll just have to go by stop-watch time.  There's no rhyme or reason in my training right now, I'm just trying to stay fit, so this is as good a starting point as any.

        I am also doing a lot of strength-training – again this is focused not on becoming a track athlete (never could I associate those words to me) but rather to again keep myself in good/better shape.  This will impact both my ability to run as well as my overall performance.  I expect my initial running times will be quite slow relative to where I got to last year, but I'll post them here anyway, just for the fun of it. 🙂

        I'll also post my thoughts on IBDR after I've tried it out.  It'll be interesting to see if I do it just once or whether I like it enough to make it a staple part of my sprinting workouts. 🙂

        I'm enjoying the conversation, I appreciate you taking the time to chit-chat on this – it's hard to find folks my-age who want to do this. 🙂

        WiZ

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        john-c-s on #52019

        I'm enjoying the conversation, I appreciate you taking the time to chit-chat on this – it's hard to find folks my-age who want to do this. 🙂

        No probs, I know what you mean.

        Sounds like you are similar to where I was last year. I did weights and ran simply to keep fit and probably wouldn't have done anything more if my daughter hadn't done athletics.

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        wizlon on #52020

        Yes, sounds similar, but in my case my new fitness lifestyle is rubbing off on my daughter (she's 7) – she works out with me in my gym, and she's quite good!  My son (10) is still more interested in his playstation – she can beat him in arm wrestling matches, which is embarrassing. 🙂

        I started on the fitness quest after a wake-up call 18 months or so ago, although I had actually started "moving" (slowly) even before that.

        I love to sprint, and was reading up on it, thats' how I found this place.  Damn great web site – good advice, nice people, no BS. 🙂

        I don't post much (this thread is the exception :-)), but I read a lot and am always finding something new to try.  And you now have me thinking about competing (for fun) in some track events now… :tumble:

        WiZ

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        stormbikes on #52021

        Hi folks – perhaps you may find this interesting.
        I am a masters athlete (male 44)and started about 2 years ago.
        My racing is mostly sprint to middle distance and i have a long
        way to go yet!  My training varies quite a bit and involves a few
        long runs each week as well as short sharp stuff (nothing too technical)
        I post my daily workouts etc at –
        https://40somethingathlete.blogspot.com  check it out if you like

        Paul (stormbikes)

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        john-c-s on #52022

        Good to see more joining the party  :biggrin:

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        wizlon on #52023

        Well I tried the "IBDR" routine today.  After a good warmup, my first run was actually 400m as fast as I could go.  This was because the first run with IBDR should be around 60-70 seconds – right in line with my sloth-like 400m running time.  :laugh:  I recorded a self-measured time of 69.3 seconds, which is not too bad for me, especially as it's my first of the season (i.e. outdoors on a real track).  That gives me a target to aim for hereafter of course.  :spin:  I rested exactly 3 minutes (as opposed to 3×70 seconds for this one interval), then proceeded with the rest of the session:

        50-sec run, 2.5min rest
        40-sec run, 2min rest
        30-sec run, 1.5min rest
        20-sec run, 1min rest
        15-sec run, end

        This is the opposite of Christian Thibeaudau's Running Man routine (Interval Build Up Running – which has intervals that get longer, my version for today had intervals that got shorter).  I've done IBUR before and liked it, but not on a track (was outside though).

        All runs were as "fast as I could go".  Typically, for the runs over about 100m, I would not plan to go "all-out" – I pace myself (I guess that's normal?).  I was expecting that as I got to the 20- and especially 15-sec run, they would be "all-out" sprints.  That didn't happen.  I think my brain sent the signals, but my legs felt like clay and they would not fire quickly.

        Based upon this one data point, this IBDR routine is HARDER than IBUR, much to my surprise.  In IBUR, you remain somewhat fresh for the first 3 runs or so (and your first 2-3 runs are all-out sprints, and they feel like it too).  Also, even though the rest periods in IBUR are relatively short, fatigue builds up for the longer runs only.  You can go all-out for the first couple of sprints and it FEEL like it's all-out.  For the subsequent longer runs, you tend to pace yourself anyway (whether you're fresh or fatigued), so the impact seems lower. 

        Conversely, in IBDR, you're at your peak for the first hard long run, after which you're toast.  Even though you get 3 minutes rest, you're still not anywhere near recovered enough to go faster on successive runs.  I couldn't actually measure my distances, but I suspect my pace for subsequent shorter runs was actually slower than my first.  So this gives a radically different (better? worse?) training effect to IBUR.  I was actually thinking this was going to be easier, because the workoad is done up-front when you're fresh.  So much for my great thinking!   :tumble:

        Any experts care to comment on this?  What conclusions or deductions can I draw?

        My personal goals right now are improved fitness overall (more muscle, less fat, better flexibility/rom, good conditioning, no injuries, and more sex and money).

        I don't know if I'll do IBUR or IBDR (or something else) for my next session(s).  I like the fact that it felt draining (I usually consider that a good sign).  I'll certainly be interested in views/comments on this type of "training"  :bouncy:

        Regards,

        WiZ

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        john-c-s on #52024

        Wiz,
        sorry for the delay in replying but trivial things like family and work have taken up the time the past few days  :bigsmile:

        First off having done IBUR flat out I know exactly what you mean. Over the last few days I did IBDR as tempo (

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        wizlon on #52025

        My running today was IBUR.  I timed myself at a slow 15.5 secs for my first 100m, which was intended to be an all-out sprint.  I guess that gives me my second data point (IBDR gave me my first 400m time). 

        I felt really slow as I ran down the track – it seemd to take ages (I guess it did too!).

        How's your running coming on John – am I anywhere near competition for you?  🙂

        WiZ

        PS the horizontal stripes on my shirt took a second off my running time because of their aerodynamic effect 😉

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        john-c-s on #52026

        Self timing and race timing aren't the same, we are probably pretty similar especially if you are using horizontal stripes  :smile:.

        Training is going well, today was really good as it was a rest day  :smilegrin:

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        rrheyn on #52027

        i am a 56 years old master, started again competition this year and hoping for some good times.i did a test on 300m and it was 42.5" flying start., yesterday i run my first nightmeet on 300m and it was 42.34 ", just behind a young gay of 45  :lol:.
        So i am amased that this was so close to my testrace, alone.
        Today i did a very hard session for my 800m. I hope to go fluently under 2.20 and i am dreaming of 2.10. With 2.15' you can win a Championship here. This is on 3th of june.
        I did today 6 x150m in 800m pace time, with exactely 50" rest between, then rest walk/jog 3-4 '
        again 5 x150m (800m pace time) same rest 50"
        walk/jog 3-4 '
        and last session 4 x 150m (800m pace time) same rest 50", all done on trainingshoes on track.(the last was 22.5")
        what time on 800m can i really run ?
        Or must i shorten the rest time from 50" to let say 40 -45" ?

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        rrheyn on #52028

        i haven't done much weighttraining this year, but i am wondering if it would advisable to gain some strenght.
        How to start with weights safely ?
        I could improve my 300m in 41.5 and 400m time in 58.75, but not at all in a relaxed way, sure not he 400m. I was dying the last 100m.
        My 200m time is only 26.67", so maybe i have to improve my speed first to see some changes in the 400m and 800m. That last i came to 2.18 alone.
        I do sometimes "Veroniques" i love that name, today i did 5 x 1' with 1' rest, after i did a 3 session ins and outs 6"/18", one session 3 sprints, the last 4 sprints.
        A good warm up for 10 ', some drills, skips, yogapostures,
        cooldown barefood on grass. I read that ins and outs give speed, but i am confused, sometimes you read that to train 100% speed you must take long rest.
        How do you guy's train your speed ?

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        dma1973 on #52029

        Good to read this.  Although not forty (34 to be exact) after 20 years of throwing hammers and two ankle injuries from falling off my bike.  My shape is back to zero.

        The good thing about masters athletics is you don't have to be good.

        I am looking at getting involved next season.

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        RunnerMan on #52030

        The good thing about masters athletics is you don't have to be good.

        quote of the year.. 😀

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